What is your opinion on GMO plants and products?

BrutulTM

BrutulTM

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Deathwing_sl said:
The point is that Monsanto is evil because it knows what it's doing is ethically wrong, who cares if the government lets them? And then they further reinforce that decision by using their lobbying power to block government regulation of their fucked up actions.

Lions just gonna lion.
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What is ethically wrong about it? If you don't want to follow Monsanto's rules then don't use their seed. It's not like there aren't other options. They spent big bucks inventing better seed that people want to use so it's only natural that they want to be paid for it. The only way that they can get paid is to enforce their patents. I don't really see where the evil comes in. Farmers buy Monsanto seed because it's worth the money. If it wasn't, they would stop buying it. The fact that they don't want to pay for it doesn't make them a martyr either, and I am a farmer myself. If they can't enforce their patents then they are going to make a smart business decision and stop spending millions on R&D to improve agriculture. Then I guess that means the good guys win?
 
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Sobaka

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GMO food may very well be harmless, however the companies that produce them are cold-hearted capitalists that will do anything just to report a higher profit on the next quarterly statements. These companies and their legal teams are causing huge problems for those that choose not to use their seeds and are basically being hegemonic as they are trying to monopolize a market. If this is left unchecked, then the future is scary.
 
Deathwing

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BrutulTM_sl said:
What is ethically wrong about it? If you don't want to follow Monsanto's rules then don't use their seed. It's not like there aren't other options. They spent big bucks inventing better seed that people want to use so it's only natural that they want to be paid for it. The only way that they can get paid is to enforce their patents. I don't really see where the evil comes in. Farmers buy Monsanto seed because it's worth the money. If it wasn't, they would stop buying it. The fact that they don't want to pay for it doesn't make them a martyr either, and I am a farmer myself. If they can't enforce their patents then they are going to make a smart business decision and stop spending millions on R&D to improve agriculture. Then I guess that means the good guys win?
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Monsanto's list of shady deeds goes well beyond patent enforcement. Just a couple have already been listed in this thread. Basically sitting in on the FDA's upper layers. Getting a bill passed through Congress that tells the FDA to ignore court injunctions.
 
ZyyzYzzy

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Monsanto is just playing the game. If I remember correctly Rumsfeld and other very influential people are on their board of directors.
 
BrutulTM

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ZyyzYzzy_sl said:
Monsanto is just playing the game.
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This. If you don't want corporations controlling the government then stop voting for people that work for their campaign contributors rather than their constituents (Republicans and Democrats). You can't blame the corporations for doing what they have a fiscal responsibility to their shareholders to do, maximize profits in whatever way is most effective. Corporations are amoral by nature. It's the job of the government to make sure that they are not abusing people in their quest for profits. We elected people that are bought out by corporate dollars, so it really comes down to us. Democracies get the government that they deserve and all that.
 
Deathwing

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BrutulTM_sl said:
This. If you don't want corporations controlling the government then stop voting for people that work for their campaign contributors rather than their constituents (Republicans and Democrats). You can't blame the corporations for doing what they have a fiscal responsibility to their shareholders to do, maximize profits in whatever way is most effective. Corporations are amoral by nature. It's the job of the government to make sure that they are not abusing people in their quest for profits. We elected people that are bought out by corporate dollars, so it really comes down to us. Democracies get the government that they deserve and all that.
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Corporations are people, my friend. If the law actually treated them as amoral entities, we'd probably have a lot less problems.

Voting third party on the state and national level is throwing away your vote. Get rid of first past the post and I'll vote for third parties the whole damn ticket.
 
Big Phoenix

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Deathwing_sl said:
Corporations are people, my friend. If the law actually treated them as amoral entities, we'd probably have a lot less problems.

Voting third party on the state and national level is throwing away your vote. Get rid of first past the post and I'll vote for third parties the whole damn ticket.
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Corporations cant vote. Yes they can donate money, but if the populace is too fucking to comprehend whats going on thats on them.
 
Deathwing

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Pontificating on the voting populace's ineptitude to not vote R or D doesn't actually fix the problem. You live in AZ right? How's voting third party working out for you? How many libertarians and green party have you sent to the House and Senate?

And no, that's not just on them. That's on all of us. Their stupidity is affecting the rest of us. I have to deal with an inept Federal government that won't prosecute/regulate the likes of Wall Street, Monsanto, or anybody with military contracts. And in the mean time, those corporations keep fucking shit up. I'm a tad bit surprised I made it through the most recent downturn without losing my job like I did in the last one.

So, no, Monsanto isn't just playing the game. They aren't big enough to tank the economy, but turning a blind eye to "corporations gonna corporate!" is what got us the last 5 years. Unreasonable protests(no, I don't think GMOs in general are bad), Michael Moore style documentaries, blogs, etc are how people "vote" against corporations these days. Voting someone else into office sure as shit ain't going to do it. Unless you have 50+ Bernie Sanders stuffed away somewhere.
 
Lejina

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Mosanto is a business and as most businesses of that size, they'd happily tap into the spinal cord of new born babies to extract money if they could, so as expected their practices may be questionable. The GMOs themselves are deliciously harmless tho.

I havnt done any research on the matter besides a few papers during my BSc Microbiology, my thing post grad was working on the genetic of Trichogramma and yellow jackets as means to control pests, so fuck yeah to genetic engineering. That was way back in the day tho, my career took several sharp turns since.
 
BrutulTM

BrutulTM

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Deathwing_sl said:
Pontificating on the voting populace's ineptitude to not vote R or D doesn't actually fix the problem.
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No, but it's one step closer to the root of the problem than whining about Monsanto.

It would be nice if corporations were moral entities but they never have been and never will be. The incentives are all in the other direction aside from government intervention.

Deathwing_sl said:
Voting third party on the state and national level is throwing away your vote.
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This is the exact attitude that maintains the status quo. They have to keep convincing us that it matters whether an R or a D wins to make sure that no one else gets a foot in the door.
 
Big Phoenix

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Deathwing_sl said:
Pontificating on the voting populace's ineptitude to not vote R or D doesn't actually fix the problem. You live in AZ right? How's voting third party working out for you? How many libertarians and green party have you sent to the House and Senate?

And no, that's not just on them. That's on all of us. Their stupidity is affecting the rest of us. I have to deal with an inept Federal government that won't prosecute/regulate the likes of Wall Street, Monsanto, or anybody with military contracts. And in the mean time, those corporations keep fucking shit up. I'm a tad bit surprised I made it through the most recent downturn without losing my job like I did in the last one.

So, no, Monsanto isn't just playing the game. They aren't big enough to tank the economy, but turning a blind eye to "corporations gonna corporate!" is what got us the last 5 years. Unreasonable protests(no, I don't think GMOs in general are bad), Michael Moore style documentaries, blogs, etc are how people "vote" against corporations these days. Voting someone else into office sure as shit ain't going to do it. Unless you have 50+ Bernie Sanders stuffed away somewhere.
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Last time I check Monsanto isnt putting forth manchurian candidates to sit on federal courts or in the Senate. They arent murdering judges or politicians to force the government to their will. They arent black mailing judges or politicians into giving them what they want. They are where they are today due to government support and sanctioning of their actions(either via legislation or judicial rulings).
 
Pumpkin Thief

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Last time you checked, huh? How would you know what the hell Monsanto does or has done or doesn't do?
 
opiate82

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I got into a Facebook argument about GMO's with my mother-in-law (I know I shouldn't have, but she was wrong on the internet damnit!) over WA's attempt to force GM labeling on food. I provided links to theAMA,AAAS,EUSAC, a25 year EU studythat all say we don't need and shouldn't label as well as stating there is no evidence to dates that GMO's are harmful (for consumption) and pointed out the fact that if she didn't want to buy GM food there was alreadyexisting labelingto allow her to do so.

Rather than maybe citing her own sources to possibly refute mine, she just came at me with the "you don't mess with mother nature" argument, while sitting in her environmentally controlled shelter, while talking on her worldwide communication device, before utilizing the paved trails with her wheeled transportation device to go buy some organic apples.
 
Deathwing

Deathwing

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BrutulTM, it's not simply an attitude, it's the truth. The critical mass required for a third party to make a difference on the state or national level is too large the spontaneously jump start a movement. First past the pole(and various other factors like the electoral college) are the reasons for this. If small amounts of votes could garner small amounts of power, third parties could gain momentum over time. However, without that, you are at least throwing your vote away or helping the greater evil get elected. That's the real kicker. I don't vote Democrat because I love Democrats, Republicans are just batshit crazy(ier) recently. Me voting green peace or whatever might help the more despised party get elected.

Phoenix, I don't understand your list besides all of them being explicitly illegal. Though I doubt some of them would even lead to prosecutions in today's climate. Yes, the government allows Monsanto and others to do what they do. Why? Because most likely those corporations paid the way for law changes. Glass-Steagall repeal of 99 was lobbied heavily by the financial industry and we got the economic collapse of 2007 for it(simplifying a bit, admittedly). Think beyond the here and now. Corporations wanted to do something that was illegal for at least 60 years and paid the law to go away.

Both parties, government and corporation, are complicit in this act. This isn't some negligent parent that lets their innocent kid go play in the street.
 
Big Phoenix

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Pumpkin Thief_sl said:
Last time you checked, huh? How would you know what the hell Monsanto does or has done or doesn't do?
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Are federal judges or senators mysteriously being killed?
Phoenix, I don't understand your list besides all of them being explicitly illegal. Though I doubt some of them would even lead to prosecutions in today's climate. Yes, the government allows Monsanto and others to do what they do. Why? Because most likely those corporations paid the way for law changes. Glass-Steagall repeal of 99 was lobbied heavily by the financial industry and we got the economic collapse of 2007 for it(simplifying a bit, admittedly). Think beyond the here and now. Corporations wanted to do something that was illegal for at least 60 years and paid the law to go away.
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So replace your elected officials. Corporations dont vote. CEOs of those evil corporations only get one vote.
 
Pumpkin Thief

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Phoenix, I have no problem with your philosophy that perhaps if people don't like 'X' then perhaps people should do something or other about 'X' and not blame 'Player X' for playing the game well. But this idea that no collusion (whether it be technically legal, but blurs the line, or outright buying of judicial or legislative influence) exists is as hyperbolic as the whole "Omgz GMOs is making us grow tails and we have a Muslim Jihadist for president!" stuff.

I appreciate that willfully ignorant and disempowered people kinda get what they get in life but the kinds of games that are played in the global corporate world -- I don't think you and I are actually invited to participate on in any real level. You're handed a controller that isn't plugged in to the console, patted on the head and told how special you are and handed a juice box.
 
Deathwing

Deathwing

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Big Phoenix_sl said:
So replace your elected officials. Corporations dont vote. CEOs of those evil corporations only get one vote.
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Are you missing the conversation I'm having with BrutulTM? Replacing elected officials(who aren't also beholden to corporate finance) is easier said than done. I'd really like for my vote to function that way, but it just doesn't work that way. There's some of what Pumpkin Thief is saying too.
 
Szlia

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The technique is more than a new way to do something we were already doing (modifications through selection and hybridization), it allows to do things that were impossible previously (pretty tough to force a fly to have sex with a potato) and as such opens the door on an almost limitless potential.

I think it is legitimate to worry about the usage of this extreme power. Not because the technique is ethically problematic or 'against mother nature' in essence (last I checked, mother nature is pretty ruthless and fighting her is a full time job for most living things), but because biology is complicated and that the greater the power, the greater the consequence of a mistake could be. Not to mention that, like any power, it could help the many but might end up only helping the few.
 
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