Why all the nerd rage against Vanguard

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boy-_foh

shitlord
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As I guess I probably stated in another thread, I still cannot understand how 150-200k can be considered a viably good number.

Everquest 1 easily does these numbers (or at least used to, prior to them totally sucking), yet Sony shows absolutely no want nor ability to invest more money into this product. Given that you"re going to put your money into the investment that gets the best return, Sony is pretty much showing that 200k subs isnota good return, even with presuambly all initial devel costs already paid off.

So if 200k subs @ $15 isn"t good enough for sony to continue to invest in EQ1, how on earth can 200k be a good number for a game that needs to recoup $30M in sunk investment, on top of upkeep and normal ROI?
 

Maxxius_foh

shitlord
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Schatze, you are spinning as much as Brad, yet you don"t see it. There is first one given, Brad fudges things. He equivocates. He will use vague adverbs freely. There are things we do know. We do know MS was the venture capitalist. I submit but cannot prove on my own that they contributed all the venture capital at least before their pullout. I am sure they were not expecting to recoup their investment immediately. I am sure they had more specific projections than we have on this forum. I am sure that after WOW hit the market they re-evaluated those projections and I am sure that once they actually saw the product that Brad intended on showing at Game convention they had misgivings. They cut their losses and ran. Time for Uncle Sam to underwrite some of their losses as the good old tax deduction for MS.

I cannot imagine that VG will ever produce a sufficient return, net of operating expenses, that will recoup MS"s investment at the sub numbers they have now unless you are talking quite a few years (and yet MS would still have done better had they thrown that 30-40 million in a conservative mutual fund).

Now if at the end of the year VG has 500K subs please oh please start a thread here and I will eat crow as much as you wish. But it just isn"t going to happen.
 

Cuppycake_foh

shitlord
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boy- said:
Everquest 1 easily does these numbers (or at least used to, prior to them totally sucking), yet Sony shows absolutely no want nor ability to invest more money into this product.
Not sure why the fuck you"re talking since SOE is still investing money in EQ1 considering there is another expansion coming out very soon.
 

Schatze_foh

shitlord
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Maxxius: No, that"s the thing, I"m not arguing a specific point.

I"ve said this many times, if you"re going to criticise something, when that something has many very glaring flaws,why make up shit instead of going for the obvious?

The problem is after saying something like that, people assume me arguing against a specific poster"s point means that I think the opposite. That"s the same logical flaw that is present in the following sentence (provided by a sage man no less), "if you"re not with us, you"re against us." Most people can see fallacy of the excluded middle in that statement, or that it is ridiculous to assume that on a given subject, there exist only two absolute, completely exclusive opinion.

To be fair, that"s the same thing that happened to me in EQ2 and VG, when someone would make a stupid joke about WOW players, I would call them out for being idiots. Those people would then assume that I liked WOW, liked WOW players, or liked WOW more than the current game I was playing.

What"s my actual opinion? I don"t think VG is a failure, if failure means that it is in serious financial trouble, that the subscription numbers are too low to sustain the game, if VG is at such a low point that recovery is not possible or probable in the medium term etc (giving my operating definition of failure there).

But I do think that the current sub rate is underwhelming and indicative of deeper problems. What deeper problem? Why, shipping a game unfinished of course, to quote someone or other, in "beta 3" or equivalent. Buggy patches that (while so far have not affected me), disillusion many players. That VG is a game that many people will not like; which is one of the reasons why I did like it. Not because of a lack of popularity, but because what I like in a game is different in many regards than what your mythical average person would like.

Etc. etc.
 

Maxxius_foh

shitlord
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Well Schatze you could have fooled a lot of us in your earlier, seemingly drug induced posts lol. Last few have been more sane. My opinion, atm, which I think I have made redundantly clear, is I think VG has become a failure in terms of expectations, financial investment and end product to subscription rate. Can this change over time, possibly, but I just plumb doubt it.
 

Schatze_foh

shitlord
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I think the difficulty was that I was trying to argue with a bunch of people simultaneously. Each person would then assume that all of my post was directed at them or a specific poster, where only a single paragraph may have been addressed at one specific thing.

So I started listing who I was addressing in each specific part of the post to clear up confusion.

Draegan:
Draegan
Die.

Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 364

You sir are a waste of bandwith. Much like this response. Which is why I"m making it short.
__________________
Meh.
Thank you for providing all the rebuttal I needed in one, convenient copy/paste!
 

Rayne_foh

shitlord
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Schatze said:
No, actually, it didn"t, that"s you interpolating a whole bunch of shit into brad"s statements so that you can draw the conclusions you"ve already decided upon ahead of time. You"re basically stating that brad said, "VG was unsuccessful." which would suit your motives fine, but is given the lie by the follow up statements "to be successful VG will have to get 200-300k subscribers. My wish is for 500k by 1 year".

What"s funny is I"m not even arguing vg is successful. Just pointing out the idiocy of the statements made.

Or would you care to point out a flaw in the reasoning, unknown factors, pointing out your assumption of hidden variables, etc. But I don"t expect that to happen.
For your viewing aneurysm, in its ENTIRETY, with the pertinent information highlighted for easy understanding:

Aradune Mithara said:
I believe I said it needed 200k-300k to be successful, and that I hoped to see 500kafterthe game was out 1 year, which would make it very profitable.So far we are in the mid 150s which is less than I would have hoped, but still good and still growing.

I have saidwe released 2-3 months earlyand that releasing near BC was a mistake, but there was nothing we could do about it. That doesn"t mean we were perfect in our development -- we made mistakes -- I talked about in the NYT about how hard it was to manage and organize a team of 100 people when we were used to to EQ 1 (which had about 25 people). So yes, it was harder to schedule and remain as focused and efficient. We also had the switch from MSFT to SOE which slowed us down and caused us to start beta too early.

We also made the mistake of releasing a little early in terms of tech, e.g. we had hoped that computers would be cheaper that could run Vanguard by the time we launched. Time will fix this, but it is hurting us short term. In 20/20 hindsight we probably should have gone a bit lower tech and made a smaller world. But we really felt strongly from the very beginning that part of immersiveness in next gen MMOG was being seamless where you could travel wherever you wanted to, fly anywhere, be able to load any object in the world anywhere in the world, etc. Again, I think longer term as tech is increasing so rapidly, a lot of these problems will go away and having a seamless world with no instancing, ships and flying mounts, etc. will pay off.

I will apolgize for all of the above and the buck stops here. I won"t, however, apologize for the team: they worked their asses off and continue to and truly believe in the game (as do I). That said, while I apologize for the mistakes, some of which we made and some of which were out of our hands, we also got the opportunity to make a very ambitious game, the game of our dreams,and were a start-up company that got a 30M+ budget, which is basically unheard of. So while VG does indeed have some issues, I know a lot of people are having fun with it, and a lot more will have fun with it in the future and call it a home. I am also proud to have been part of such an awesome team and to have been able to launch a second MMOG (not something a lot of people can say they have done). So, again, I do apologize for the shortcomings, but am also proud of the game and its potential, and am confident that while it is a successful game now (certainly not a WoW, but not a D&D online either) it will gain momentum as tech catches up, people tire of BC, etc. And also as we through both expansions and the live team add more really cool features to the game over the next year.

Also things like teleporters, experience rates, better LFG tools, etc. are all being looked at and you will see changes soon. I don"t have the details yet, but we are listening and the game will get better and the areas where we messed up (large world, but too hard to find a group, etc.) will be addressed.
Notice the complete ignorance to other, high profile games coming in the near and extended future? The references to early release? Do you really need a roadmap? You bet your ass he meant 200-300k at launch. To think he meant otherwise is absolutely ludicrous. Not to mention beyond inconceivable gullibility.
 
Kendrick said:
Grieg"s exploits happened after I left, I have no idea how that was handled, though GE was my zone.
Though he"s probably not reading this train wreck anymore and despite not wanting to sound like an ass kisser, I wanted to say that I think Grieg"s was one of the best single group dungeons I"ve ever been in. Mobs appearing differently to different players, random immunity, etc., made me love this zone as an Enchanter. It was nice seeing a zone that actually required some teamwork as opposed to "Pull the room, I"ll mez all the ones that you aren"t hitting." That and the zone was just a bizarre mesh of stuff (as was fitting to the lore) that made working our way through it very interesting. Unfortunately, I could almost never get people to do the zone, but roaming through it with a good group the first time is one of those things I"ll never forget.

Kudos from me, albeit about 6 years too late.
 

Utnayan

I Love Utnayan he’s awesome
<Gold Donor>
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I got the info stated that I wanted to see.

Kendrick told us that PoM was NOT finished.

With that said, Kendrick, whether this fucker hates me or not, is one of the best god damn designers there is. And I have always known this. Is he egostical as fuck? From what I have heard, yes he is. But who gives a shit. He should be. He created awesome shit.

Period.

It is a shame that he was not given the freedom to do what he does best: Make the God Damn game.

With that said, I am asking him, point blank, why the fuck didn"t anyone say anything to the players when they were chasing their tails.

WHY?

He KNEW pom wasn"t finished. Yet these fuckers told people time and time again that it was finished when it wasn"t... and people who just wanted to play and love the game, couldn"t ever come to finishing anything because IT WAS NOT IN THE GAME TO COMPLETE.

That.... and that alone... is what I fight for.

I fight for game players who just want to PLAY THE GAME. And discover cool shit.

In the case of PoM, they LIED. And watched as people chased bullshit. All they had to say was "You know what guys? We didn"t finish this. Direct your time where content is finished"

And to this, I will ask Kendrick point blank... Why didn"t you just fucking SAY SOMETHING.

WHY?
 

woqqqa_foh

shitlord
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Utnayan said:
I got the info stated that I wanted to see.

Kendrick told us that PoM was NOT finished.

With that said, Kendrick, whether this fucker hates me or not, is one of the best god damn designers there is. And I have always known this. Is he egostical as fuck? From what I have heard, yes he is. But who gives a shit. He should be. He created awesome shit.

Period.

It is a shame that he was not given the freedom to do what he does best: Make the God Damn game.

With that said, I am asking him, point blank, why the fuck didn"t anyone say anything to the players when they were chasing their tails.

WHY?

He KNEW pom wasn"t finished. Yet these fuckers told people time and time again that it was finished when it wasn"t... and people who just wanted to play and love the game, couldn"t ever come to finishing anything because IT WAS NOT IN THE GAME TO COMPLETE.

That.... and that alone... is what I fight for.

I fight for game players who just want to PLAY THE GAME. And discover cool shit.

In the case of PoM, they LIED. And watched as people chased bullshit. All they had to say was "You know what guys? We didn"t finish this. Direct your time where content is finished"

And to this, I will ask Kendrick point blank... Why didn"t you just fucking SAY SOMETHING.

WHY?
He wanted to keep his job, maybe?
 

Dinthug_foh

shitlord
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Because if they were admitting content was not finished every time it was put in game, people would still be bitching and moaning and they would have admitted fault. Better off to just say it was intended that way and fix what needs to be fixed and if they don"t have time for it, hey it was intended.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
Utnayan said:
Weeping Vagina
Ok first, this is a video game we"re talking about. Second, this happened a while ago. Why are you all worked up in teenage angst about something like this? You do realize this is the real world of business. PR and spin are king. Why would he be honest about a fuck up? Get over it already.
 

woqqqa_foh

shitlord
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Draegan said:
Ok first, this is a video game we"re talking about. Second, this happened a while ago. Why are you all worked up in teenage angst about something like this? You do realize this is the real world of business. PR and spin are king. Why would he be honest about a fuck up? Get over it already.
Because he"s on a quest for the truth. THE TRUTH!

seriously
 

Xitix_foh

shitlord
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From a management perspective finished is when they stop working on it regardless of the state it"s in. If the product sucks then users have to raise some hell to get them to start working on it again.
 

Erronius

Macho Ma'am
<Gold Donor>
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Schatze: you would be better off with a cliff-notes version of your argument, because as it stands I wonder just how many people are even bothering to read what you are saying. I stopped reading one post when you said that you didn"t know who Aradune was (in a VG thread no less). Another post sounded like a rant that you wrote while sitting in an Econ class, and I quit reading that as well. No matter how much sense you might have made - reading a rambling rant written in the form of a research paper, and just as dry, just doesn"t do it for most people on this forum.

After all of that I just threw my hands in the air and thought "fuck it, the threads over now". I assume I wasn"t alone in this. Let"s hear it for Broccoli, amirite?


Utnayan said:
That.... and that alone... is what I fight for.

I fight for game players who just want to PLAY THE GAME. And discover cool shit.
You sound like a soldier in WWII rationalizing why he kills Germans: because he is fighting the evil Third Reich for the people back home who don"t understand the peril Germany poses to them. "That...is what I fight for!"

I appreciate you fighting the good fight UT! Keep it up, you"ve got Req, Brad, SOE, Sigil and pretty much anyone else you want to toss in on the ropes! I can smell victory already! The MMO Illuminati can only keep us in the dark for so long with you on the case! I don"t know about anyone else, but I can can sleep soundly tonight for the first time since I started playing MMOs!

We need a picture of UT as Capt. America, protecting us from Brad, in the the role of Red Skull.

Utnayan said:
In the case of PoM, they LIED. And watched as people chased bullshit. All they had to say was "You know what guys? We didn"t finish this. Direct your time where content is finished"

And to this, I will ask Kendrick point blank... Why didn"t you just fucking SAY SOMETHING.

WHY?
Maybe...and I might be going out on a limb here...but that wasn"t his job? I know for damned sure that if I was him, I would do my time each day then head home for a well-deserved beer. I sure as hell wouldn"t be going out of my way to inform a bunch of paranoid gamers of facts they really don"t need to know, just on the off chance that some day, years in the future, a bunch of computer nerd conspiracy theorist might draw conclusions that make absolutely no sense. I"m pretty sure there wasn"t some ulterior motive on his part, fuck man, he was just doing his job.
 

woqqqa_foh

shitlord
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Erronius said:
Maybe...and I might be going out on a limb here...but that wasn"t his job? I know for damned sure that if I was him, I would do my time each day then head home for a well-deserved beer. I sure as hell wouldn"t be going out of my way to inform a bunch of paranoid gamers of facts they really don"t need to know, just on the off chance that some day, years in the future, a bunch of computer nerd conspiracy theorist might draw conclusions that make absolutely no sense. I"m pretty sure there wasn"t some ulterior motive on his part, fuck man, he was just doing his job.
Ah but you"re wrong...it was all a conspiracy. You see, Brad works for the Illuminati, the WTO, the Bilderberg Group and the editors of Cat Fancy Magazine, and they"re all out to steal our brains! But it"s okay, they can"t get us if we shoot ourselves in the head first! Don"t let them use you for their nefarious schemes! Ut"s just trying to stop them by posting repeatedly on an MMO forum until they die of laughter reading his work, thereby saving us all.
 

MetalNeo_foh

shitlord
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Utnayan said:
She doesn"t know how to temp ban people and has been an admin here for how long?

The reason why I was unbanned was because I sent out an email to someone in touch with you guys and asked them for a favor because I could not believe that after I was banned McQuaid"s post fluff count here reached epic proportions. Before that, I heard from an Ex "Disgruntled" employeee of Sigil, as Rav likes to call my source, exactly what I told the board here.

You obviously do not have the entire story, so if you don"t, I"m not going to sit here and blast you for it. But buck up and deal and figure it the fuck out, because what happened happened. My goal is accomplished - so I can still come in here and lambast those damn PR posts.

Let"s see how many are made now that I am back again. So far, jack shit from the McQuaid on all fronts.

Maybe he can come back here and start talking about system specs again and deflecting the issues everyone is complaining about. He finally admitted he released too early. Maybe he can answer why he told everyone here months ago that the reason why the split with MS happened was due to the fact that they had lost all confidence in his company to accomplish ANYTHING. Maybe he can come in here and state why he told everyone that the game wouldn"t be released until it was ready, and had the balls to say MS wasn"t giving them enough time to do it - when they had 4 and a half fucking years and still came out with not only a horrid launch, but post 40+ content damn near non existant, and TO THIS DAY, being patched in in the middle of April with the next big "art asset" push.

And I would like to see him deny any of that. Because I am one click away from posting an entire page of what is coming up with this game which will show just how much shit is missing.

They actually have the balls to seperate the live and expansion team in April to start work on the God Damn expansion already when this game is no where near the state it needs to be in.
On a real out there note is it possible that Brad is Ut and Ut is Brad? Split personalities? Ones posts goes up while the others goes down?

Someone que the Crying Game Music please...