Wildstar Launch Thread - Server: Stormtalon | Faction: Dominion

There are multiple genres of games much more suited to skill based differentiation of player ability. FPS, MOBA, RTS obviously. I don't understand the desire to PvP in an MMO - it almost always comes down to a very lopsided engagement that is predicated on surprise, levels, gear, class balance. The subset of people who want PvP in a RPG setting desire asymetrical pvp more often than not. The amount of folks who actually want to play a flat skill based arena fight is very small subset of the PvP crowd.

Personally, I like having my RPG character with a thousand slash ultra skill. Unless the game says "Not usable on Players" on every skill or item with such a design these skill and items, do not get added to the world. They tend to get removed because having two completely separate skill sets for characters is seen as very bizarre from an immersion standpoint.

Why can't we have weapons that unlock unique finishing moves? Why can't we have armor that gives completely game breaking skills for more trivial content? A major reason we don't see this stuff anymore is that it all gets removed, nerfed, and sanitized because a dev team cannot "balance" creative shit like that. And those things are fun. Any game that attempts to do both makes the shit in the game bland for both sides of the coin. PvP'ers don't get real balance ever, and PvE'ers don't get to work towards their godly sword of doom.

I realize some players want some kind of Darwinian survival of the fittest Dayz style MMO experience, but maybe you should go play Dayz instead, it will give you a better more focused experience. I can't see how you'd ever go back to MMO's for pvp if you actually want competitive balance to really exist.

TLDR; MMO's should never try and be pvp and pve. It sucks the fun and creativity out of both sides of the coin, one for competitive reasons and the other for just plain enjoyment.

Draegan_sl said:

PVP in Wildstar:
Arenas
Battlegrounds
Warplots
PVP servers

So much pvp in this game.

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so your pointing out theyve gone above and beyond what is expected of PvP in a game like Wildstar? im confused, which side are you arguing?

He's arguing to rustle.

Byr_sl said:

so your pointing out theyve gone above and beyond what is expected of PvP in a game like Wildstar? im confused, which side are you arguing?

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Heh I was wondering the same thing about that post.

I'm one of those that feel strongly about this issue and I think it stems from the fact I must be a rare mmo fan who actually really enjoys both pve and pvp. I never really pvp'd in EQ and had a blast in that game, I did both in wow and had a blast in both, wow really opened my eyes to how much fun pvp in an mmo could be and I'm hooked. I hardcore raided in wow for years and when they would make pvp related balance changes it never really appeared to me to have a huge impact on said class in pve, it always seemed overblown to me, hell even when my class would be nerfed for pvp it never felt like it impeded on my ability to do my job in a raid. Hell I'd say pve related dps balance changes messed up pvp burst issues far more than the other way around. I saw why the changes were needed since I participated in both and it always seemed like the pve only diehards would only look at it from their perspective and could care less how the pvp'ers enjoyed the game which always seemed selfish to me. I never wanted pve to take a backseat to pvp I felt both were enjoyable and deserved attention.

I don't think wow pvp hurt pve, hell I'd bet if wow didn't have pvp it still would have been a very popular game but not nearly as popular as it became. I also think saying that people who enjoy mmo pvp only want a lopsided fight cause they have no skill is really selling it and those players short. I enjoy the occasional moba, shooter or whatever online pvp game but c'mon let's be honest for those of us that really love mmo's those other games are just filler. I never got the pvp satisfaction I got from wow from LoL or any other pvp game even though I did enjoy them. So far Wildstar looks really promising on both fronts and I for one hope both pve and pvp in Wildstar are top notch.

Byr_sl said:

so your pointing out theyve gone above and beyond what is expected of PvP in a game like Wildstar? im confused, which side are you arguing?

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That's barely more than what WoW has, and segregating PvP to instances/minority of servers clearly weights the content toward PvE.

BrandonBS_sl said:

I never got the pvp satisfaction I got from wow from LoL or any other pvp game even though I did enjoy them.

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PvP satisfaction in a game where you are rewarded gear that helps you succeed when you succeed and each player enters the game at different levels of gear? Your satisfaction rests on ignorance.

As someone who is not big at all into pvp a ton of this conversation seems insane to me. First off, the game is built around 2 warring factions. If that right there doesn't tell you the Wildstar team wants there to be player conflict I don't know what to say. I can think of no other reason you would want to split your userbase down the middle other than because PVP is going to play a major role in your game. I think the people talking about PvP being a tacked on minigame feature are just totally off base.

Secondly, while I'm not a big pvper, most of my friends are. I'm really into PvE, Raids, I'm totally a completionist personally. I have friends who spends hours, every single day, PvPing in WoW. These are guys who are doing arena's and battlegrounds in a highly competitive fashion, and listening to them in vent/ occasionally doing battlegrounds with them in the past was really eye opening. I feel like there is a huge misunderstanding of PVP motivators in this thread, and it largely sounds like its from people who have had bad experiences with PvP griefing, or people feeling like PvP balancing caused them personal grief. I was in the exact same camp as them after Ultima Online, where it seemed like every 2 minutes someone was Corp Por'ing me to death. I probably spend half my playtime or more in town, simply because leaving town meant inst-death to some jack ass PvPer. When EQ came along I was thrilled, because NO PVP! What a perfect world! My friends had to beg and plead with me to play wow on a PVP server (we started on an RP one, but some people really wanted to try it out..), and I tried to explain to them how god awful and not fun it would be. I had the same image in my head a lot of people have here. People wanting to PvP in an MMO just want to hit max lvl, and go gank lowbies all day and all night. It was just going to be shitty, and not at all fun.

But yeah, while that did happen every now and again, 98% of the PvP I experienced in WoW was by people my own lvl, questing like me. I found myself actively dueling the other classes outside of cities to get better, and to learn what they could do and how to counter it, if I even could. I figured out what classes I could beat, and what classes I should run from if possible. I really ended up enjoying it a lot, and I most definitely became a better player because of it. No mob in the game was capable of ANYTHING like what another player could throw at you, and if you could do well against people, a lot of PvE content became much easier. Granted, PvP evolved and changed a lot over WoWs lifespan, and while I still enjoy it in doses, it's never really going to be "my thing" in an mmo. That being said, I sure like having the option!

As far as typical MMO PvPer, I would guess its spread out something like 10% idiot asshats who only gank and have no real skill, 75% people of a battleground lvl skill (still not really good against someone highly skilled, but comparable to a majority of players and can have fun with it, I think I fit in here), 13% Really good players who primarily do arena's and dominate in battlegrounds (most of my friends fit in there), and 2% Pro players. The difference in skill lvl between the different brackets is staggering, almost like they are playing different games. There is going to be tons of shouting and screaming about how X class is overpowered, or X gear is overpowered every time someone from the top tier solo's 5 players of a lower tier, and while there have definitely been situations where that has happened, so much of it really is player skill. I guarantee there are players who can solo a member of their own class while wearing garbage, while their opponent is in the best available gear, I just really don't see how anyone could argue that there is no "Skill" involved. Just because it's not your playstyle, and you aren't a part of the PVP community, doesn't mean there aren't hundreds of thousands of people who, to them, THAT is the real game.

As far as PvP hurting PvE.... meh? I've primarily been a raider all of my MMO years, and while I'm sure you could argue it and have a leg to stand on, I can't think of a single instance of our raids being impacted by a PvP nerf. Again, it might have happened somewhere in all that time, but definitely not enough to get up on a soapbox and scream about it.

Thats what it looks like based on my history and weirdness of having most of my real life friends end up being primarily PvPers. I'm sure you can play on a PvE server and pretty much just ignore PvP if you want though, so to each his own.

Unless a game is built from the ground up for PvP it is not a PvP game. Wildstar is a PvE game first and foremost with PvP as a feature. Anyone who thinks differently obviously doesn't know what a real PvP MMO is.

Draegan was 100% right.

Can you level exclusively by PvP? Yes
Is there end game content in the form of PvP? Yes
Will they add tons of PvP exclusive content in all likelihood? Yes
Could you in fact play this game 15 hours a day, every day, for a year, and NEVER kill one monster, all the while progressing your char? Yes

How on earth can you claim this is solely a PvE game, with PvP being a "feature"? Crafting is a feature. Playing the AH is a feature. A tetris mini game would be a feature. This is one of two primary gameplay modes.

Again, as a primarily PvE'er, PvP is pretty ingrained in the entire basis of the game. Two warring factions fighting each other (PVP) while exploring a planet and trying to claim it as their own (PVE).

Onoes_sl said:

Can you level exclusively by PvP? Yes
Is there end game content in the form of PvP? Yes
Will they add tons of PvP exclusive content in all likelihood? Yes

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Can you level exclusively by Crafting? Yes
Is there end game content in the form of Crafting? Yes
Will they add tons of crafting exclusive content in all likelihood? Yes

Would You consider Uncharted as a multi-player game or a story driven single player game?
Would you consider CoD a single player game or a multiplayer game?

EVE is pretty dull. You have to get into some politics or just really enjoy ProgressQuest. They've got some good territory control mechanics I'd like to see used in a fantasy game though.

I wish each class had a specific set of PvP abilities that can only be used in PvP. Obviously that's a lot more work for Devs but that way you could balance PvP really well. It wouldn't affect PvE at all and give the PvP a lot of depth. Thats exactly how devs should do it. PvP needs to have a lot more riding on it too. Possibly a system where you can choose three pieces of armour that can't drop when you die but the rest does... Or something a long those lines.. Make money actually matter in the game and you drop x amount of gold.

Loads of great looking aspects to this game. But suspect going with two hard coded factions and multiple roles for each class will threaten the longevity for me.

Onoes_sl said:

Can you level exclusively by PvP? Yes
Is there end game content in the form of PvP? Yes
Will they add tons of PvP exclusive content in all likelihood? Yes
Could you in fact play this game 15 hours a day, every day, for a year, and NEVER kill one monster, all the while progressing your char? Yes

How on earth can you claim this is solely a PvE game, with PvP being a "feature"? Crafting is a feature. Playing the AH is a feature. A tetris mini game would be a feature. This is one of two primary gameplay modes.

Again, as a primarily PvE'er, PvP is pretty ingrained in the entire basis of the game. Two warring factions fighting each other (PVP) while exploring a planet and trying to claim it as their own (PVE).

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I probably can find this exact same quote posted two years ago in the Rift thread. We see how that turned out.

History proves time and time again that any game that contains both PvE and PvP, a majority of players and therefore development, will gravitate toward PvE.

But rifts pvp was shit.

Therewas a threadposted by a designer at Carbine a week or so ago talking about some goals for itemization & crafting for the Elder Game.

Vandyn_sl said:

I probably can find this exact same quote posted two years ago in the Rift thread. We see how that turned out.

History proves time and time again that any game that contains both PvE and PvP, a majority of players and therefore development, will gravitate toward PvE.

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Well, people will gravitate towards the easy gear. TBC WoW showed this to a pretty gruesome extent. 20-30 AFKavers every AV. People taking their 10 beatings a week for arena points. The huge uproar when required arena ratings came in for the top tier gear...

Byr_sl said:

so your pointing out theyve gone above and beyond what is expected of PvP in a game like Wildstar? im confused, which side are you arguing?

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BrandonBS_sl said:

Heh I was wondering the same thing about that post.

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If that is above and beyond, you guys must play or be fans of really shitty games. Sad really; maybe Wildstar is a PVP game to you.

Hardly a pvp game, but there's certainly some potential and hope on my part that it'll be good for pvp. The open world stuff in combination with attackable/destroyable settler deployables could make for some interesting and fun times. That and warplots are where it's at for me.