Wildstar Launch Thread - Server: Stormtalon | Faction: Dominion

Merrith

Golden Baronet of the Realm
18,113
6,923
I guess if you wanted to sum up the above in a more technical term. People had fun leveling up because there was a distinct goal - even if it took a long time to hit that goal. People had fun after being leveled up because they felt a grand sense of accomplishment due to all the people that were still having fun leveling up, yet currently far weaker than those who had finished leveling up. When you design a game so that the entire server hits level cap in the first few weeks, you not only lose the "fun" period of leveling up for most people, but you also lose one of the most significant rewards of actually leveling up (being ahead of others).
This wasn't just true in that there weren't a lot at cap for awhile in WoW, but the overall end game raiding (once there was more than just Ony/MC) had a big gap between the people on the bleeding edge and everyone else. Comparing it to your point that today's model of leveling causes people at cap first to lose the most significant reward of being ahead of other people, when they design the end game raids around everyone being able to see all of the content (even if on a weaker difficulty level), it removes the reward for a lot of players of having seen zones/bosses/fights that others couldn't. Just having a new achievement with (Normal) or (Heroic) attached to it isn't enough for a lot of players. Why put in all of that work if you can just beat it on Normal or LFR and see the fight/gear anyways, just a few ilevel lower.
 

Jackdaddio_sl

shitlord
727
0
Spend a very long time getting to cap/leveling up in games like EQ/Lineage 2(later WoW)--> Do a small amount of activities at cap, but bask in the fact that you're one of the few people that actually have a capped character.
Eh? "Very long time getting to cap" in WoW?
confused.png


I remember when I left FFXI and went to WoW, I was able to max 3 characters to 50 inside less time than it took me to get one to 3/4 in FFXI. Granted, FFXI was sit in one spot and grind for 4-6 hours on only two different types of mobs plus a death penalty, but there wasn't any way I'd call any of WoW's leveling even hard, much less 'very' hard.

The difference was WoW's leveling was something I could do at a leisurely solo pace and it was actually fast and fun, whereas I was chat-chatting all day in FFXI parties with guildies and PUG Japanese players through the translator trying not to suck so I'd get a re-invite with them next time (those guys were beastly levelers). And that was at a fast pace for FFXI, those guys were machines when it came to playing.

People actually thought WoW leveling was very hard?
 

ZProtoss

Golden Squire
395
15
This wasn't just true in that there weren't a lot at cap for awhile in WoW, but the overall end game raiding (once there was more than just Ony/MC) had a big gap between the people on the bleeding edge and everyone else. Comparing it to your point that today's model of leveling causes people at cap first to lose the most significant reward of being ahead of other people, when they design the end game raids around everyone being able to see all of the content (even if on a weaker difficulty level), it removes the reward for a lot of players of having seen zones/bosses/fights that others couldn't. Just having a new achievement with (Normal) or (Heroic) attached to it isn't enough for a lot of players. Why put in all of that work if you can just beat it on Normal or LFR and see the fight/gear anyways, just a few ilevel lower.
Actually, I think the factors merge in a completely unintended fashion that made the overall effect much stronger. Think about WoW from the perspective of a player who's middle of the road playtime wise

You hit level cap 2-3 months into the game --> You see people around with crazy gear (MC/Onyxia stuff) --> You do 5 mans for a month to get your blue gear --> You then get to start doing the stuff which gets you the "crazy" gear that you initially saw.

Part of it was the culture of the time, but people didn't get upset when they saw that people were ahead of them back then - it just deepened the mystery and wonder for the game. A long leveling time with forced tiered progression had a way of messing with people's senses on how much there was to do in a game, and also what the core game mechanics actually boiled down to. In a sense, WoW put forth a very convincing illusion to your casual players that the game was deep and never ending, in part because the game did a very good job of keeping them far behind the curve.

The problem is that in today's environment, there's no going back. People are not only far more genre savvy (way harder to impress), but the genre put itself in a bind where it can never, ever go back to having long leveling times or progression tiers again. It's not salvagable at this point.
 

ZProtoss

Golden Squire
395
15
Eh? "Very long time getting to cap" in WoW?
confused.png


I remember when I left FFXI and went to WoW, I was able to max 3 characters to 50 inside less time than it took me to get one to 3/4 in FFXI. Granted, FFXI was sit in one spot and grind for 4-6 hours on only two different types of mobs plus a death penalty, but there wasn't any way I'd call any of WoW's leveling even hard, much less 'very' hard.

The difference was WoW's leveling was something I could do at a leisurely solo pace and it was actually fast and fun, whereas I was chat-chatting all day in FFXI parties with guildies and PUG Japanese players through the translator trying not to suck so I'd get a re-invite with them next time (those guys were beastly levelers). And that was at a fast pace for FFXI, those guys were machines when it came to playing.

People actually thought WoW leveling was very hard?
WoW leveling wasn't hard by comparison to your legacy games in EQ/Lineage2/FFXI, but WoW leveling was drastically harder than almost any game that's come out post WoW. Getting to cap in vanilla for people who weren't going out of their way to optimize shit was anywhere from 9-12 days of /played time. Modern MMOs don't come anywhere close to requiring that time investment.
 

Merrith

Golden Baronet of the Realm
18,113
6,923
Part of it was the culture of the time, but people didn't get upset when they saw that people were ahead of them back then - it just deepened the mystery and wonder for the game. A long leveling time with forced tiered progression had a way of messing with people's senses on how much there was to do in a game, and also what the core game mechanics actually boiled down to. In a sense, WoW put forth a very convincing illusion to your casual players that the game was deep and never ending, in part because the game did a very good job of keeping them far behind the curve.

The problem is that in today's environment, there's no going back. People are not only far more genre savvy (way harder to impress), but the genre put itself in a bind where it can never, ever go back to having long leveling times or progression tiers again. It's not salvagable at this point.
Yup, this pretty much sums it all up. They can't go back if they expect to have any sort of financial success (at least not to the point that it would be considered a success in the genre). The illusion worked a little too well in the end though...all of the bitching about the "1%" towards the end of Vanilla and into TBC are part of what tilted their thinking towards Johnny Casual. While there were certainly some harder fights out there during that time, 90% of the problem keeping all of the peons out there from seeing all the content was simple lack of organization, not "skill" at the game.
 

Jackdaddio_sl

shitlord
727
0
WoW leveling wasn't hard by comparison to your legacy games in EQ/Lineage2/FFXI, but WoW leveling was drastically harder than almost any game that's come out post WoW. Getting to cap in vanilla for people who weren't going out of their way to optimize shit was anywhere from 9-12 days of /played time. Modern MMOs don't come anywhere close to requiring that time investment.
This doesn't have as much to do with the games themselves as the players and archaic features of those 'great' games in the past.

The people who make it to the top nowadays are very eager to write guides to tell other people how they did it. Put their personal tag or guild ID on it and... famous! That wasn't as readily available back in Vanilla. There were some but not as proliferated as today and that has more to do with those players at the top end than those at the bottom leveling. Many times in the past, a guild or person only revealed certain important tips/hints mainly because they got tired of hearing So and So claimed it first, so they wanted to document proof so they got the credit for w/e happened. Not for fame always, but for principle.

Now a lot of high level players want fame for fame's sake;'This is my guide. I trademarked it."It used to be that ways to level fast and make money were closely guarded trade secrets. In FFXI, you kept secret when your link killed w/e dragon you got so you could put it on farm or a boss in SEA/SKY. Nowadays, that guild will livestream the kill. There used to be few macros and only anyone with a computer background knew how to make/use them. Now there's guides to your guides to one-fingered endgame raiding for games like Rift. Things that used to be rare are now commonplace or in many games,required.Let's not even get started on equipment like keyboards and mice. I used a fucking trackball and thought that was the shit.

It's not that games can't be made to satisfy players anymore; they are. A lot of games still put out decent amounts of somewhat challenging content that the average casual would still struggle through if left to theirowndevices like the past. Hell, most still can't get out of the large Glowing Pool of Stupid on the screen. The problem is when game communities (from the top down) tell noobs"What? You don't know this dungeon? I don't care if it's your fucking first time. Go watch all six videos out, go read all 20 guides until you know it backwards/forwards and then get geared up and we might take you."And I'm not talking about the endgame dungeons either. The mentality that breeds that comes from the top players at level 15 or w/e level that first dungeon starts. So then one nub learns and now he's elitist and shouts for 30 minutes trying to make a team to"must be geared and kno all fights. will kik you if not"...for a level 20 dungeon.

The other main factor? Transportation.

In Vanilla, there was no level 20 mount and the bird didn't even hit all the places they do now. You had to walk to quite a few of them. So time to get to half of them was doubled/triple/w/e back then. Now, people don't want all that walking shit where it takes 1 hour to get to a place, then you die and forgot to bind and now.. all the way back. That's a time waster, not a challenge. Devs realized people wanted it so they put instant travel in more games and took out things like only certain classes having the teleport (mage in WoW, BLMs in FFXI, sorcs/druids in EQ2, etc) and just made it standard for everyone. In FFXI, you missed the ferry or airship? Tough shit. Wait 20 minutes for the next one and don't miss that one either or same thing.

None of that time that it took to get from A-B had anything to do with 'harder' or 'better' content back then but yet it does factor into your overall time assessment vs today, although I don't think you acknowledged it. Apologies if you did.
 

ZProtoss

Golden Squire
395
15
It's not that games can't be made to satisfy players anymore; they are. A lot of games still put out decent amounts of somewhat challenging content that the average casual would still struggle through if left to theirowndevices like the past. Hell, most still can't get out of the large Glowing Pool of Stupid on the screen. The problem is when game communities (from the top down) tell noobs"What? You don't know this dungeon? I don't care if it's your fucking first time. Go watch all six videos out, go read all 20 guides until you know it backwards/forwards and then get geared up and we might take you."And I'm not talking about the endgame dungeons either. The mentality that breeds that comes from the top players at level 15 or w/e level that first dungeon starts. So then one nub learns and now he's elitist and shouts for 30 minutes trying to make a team to"must be geared and kno all fights. will kik you if not"...for a level 20 dungeon.
Information proliferation in general has hurt pretty much every genre of gaming. There was much more of a whimsical sense of adventure/figuring shit out on your own for ALL games back in the late 90s/00's that just doesn't exist today. The only people who get a sense of discovery in games anymore are the 0.0001% on the bleeding edge. A great comparison on this isn't even the MMOsphere, but Starcraft circa 1999 vs Starcraft 2 today. My original memories of Starcraft include playing in a huge variety of communities where strategies were vast and varied (particularly helped out by a lack of a decent ladder back in the day). It's true that nothing was close to optimal, but in an era before streaming and before even replays, it made for a very diverse environment. Starcraft 2 by comparison was basically a soulless meat grinder where everyone who wasn't on the bleeding edge ended up copying the bleeding edge to varying degrees of success in an endless ladder grind.

So yeah, nowadays you not only have an environment where people are far better at figuring shit out in games due to experience, but also an environment where those same people can broadcast every game secret in explicit detail at breakneck speed to any who might care. Doesn't leave a whole lot of room for your average gamer to enjoy games in a way that people took for granted in the past.
 

Merrith

Golden Baronet of the Realm
18,113
6,923
I guess I'm one of the few who had a certain liking for all of the travel. It meant something to plan out your time in game and it meant something to go quest in certain zones or hubs because you couldn't just instantly teleport everywhere 3 different ways. Obviously some games had some really needless time wasters (running through your hangar and waiting for loading screens in TOR comes to mind), but part of the fun back then was knowing the best way to get around as quickly as possible and being able to know if people were smart enough to get to places quickly. I just can't get behind anything that turns a game into "sit in X spot as your main hub b/c you can get to anywhere instantly from here without any work or planning".

Also, it wasn't just the extra time spent in travel that made it take a little longer to level to cap back in times like Vanilla WoW. Leveling WAS much slower by comparison to how it is now. Games now the leveling is so damn fast you barely appreciate any of the journey to cap. People wouldn't even understand the concept of hell levels nowadays.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
I think the biggest problem MMOs have (at least from a PvE end) is that the amount of innovation you can do now has pretty much been tapped dry. EQ and WoW were able to throw things at players that the players had never seen before - there was a huge sense of mystery and wonder. I'd argue that it's almost impossible to capture players to that extent today. Even a well received game like FFXIV wasn't well received because of new mechanics or a sense of wonder, rather it was well received because an overpowering presentation factor that made the game fun in the short term.

When it comes to mass appeal in gaming, I would argue quite heavily that game genres have a shelf life. What happened to traditional MMOs is really no different than what happened to the marketshare of PC FPS/RTS games after their glory days in the late 90s. You can only throw so many new mechanics at people in a genre before the vast bulk of things have been tried and new genres suddenly become way more appealing. It's why the MOBA genre is going to have a sharp decline after League/Dota/Heroes, because making a new game in that genre that won't have people thinking "I've played this before" is pretty much going to be impossible.

If you're a game developer right now, the last thing you want to be doing is making another WoW or a DOTA-clone type game. Instead, you want to attempt to create a new genre that can impress people with mechanics and ideas that haven't been tried before. Not an easy task, but something that has way more promise than making a game in a tapped out genre at any rate.
Charles Holland Duell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Asherah

Silver Knight of the Realm
287
38
I think the thing that has caused the most damage to the MMO genre is transforming raids into a frequent and more or less mandatory activity. Back in EQ and early WoW people outside of hardcore raid guilds did not view all other content as merely a way of gearing up for raids. Getting those Yaks or a FBSS was a big deal. Crafting that Arcanite Reaper was a worthwhile goal. People could do 5-mans and UBRS for months without feeling it was a pointless waste of time. Today people don't care that much because the gear they get will just be replaced in the first raid instance anyway. And you can spend almost all your online time in raids. The end result is that raids feel like work and everything else becomes pointless. To avoid this, raids would either have to become less frequent or the other gear more competitive. Or both. Sure, Blizzard will be able to keep milking WoW for quite a few more years. However, I don't think the market for new raid simulators is very big. Enough people have been there and done that now.
 

Malakriss

Golden Baronet of the Realm
12,343
11,732
I'd say they are wondering why the f#$@ there isn't a Pokemon MMO and that's the next best thing.
 

Eidal

Molten Core Raider
2,001
213
My wife is brand new to MMOs and WoW, and was pretty nervous doing anything without me in WoW until she stumbled upon Pet Battles. The Pet Battle quest line has taken her into new zones and just now "gear-checked" her. Now she's leveling up her pets in Duskwood and reading about what pets are good at battling...

Blizzard are too damn good at what they do. They already had the raid scene wrapped up -- no one gives a shit about raiding in any game except arguably WoW. Same goes for MMO PVP; WoW Arena actually has a decent twitch viewership. Between the Tillers, Pet Battles, and the upcoming Garrisons... there is a lot of meat for people who don't want to raid OR PVP... Quite impressive.
 

Miele

Lord Nagafen Raider
916
48
My wife is brand new to MMOs and WoW, and was pretty nervous doing anything without me in WoW until she stumbled upon Pet Battles. The Pet Battle quest line has taken her into new zones and just now "gear-checked" her. Now she's leveling up her pets in Duskwood and reading about what pets are good at battling...

Blizzard are too damn good at what they do. They already had the raid scene wrapped up -- no one gives a shit about raiding in any game except arguably WoW. Same goes for MMO PVP; WoW Arena actually has a decent twitch viewership. Between the Tillers, Pet Battles, and the upcoming Garrisons... there is a lot of meat for people who don't want to raid OR PVP... Quite impressive.
They manage to piss off veterans at every xpack cycle, by removing or reworking stuff that doesn't need it, but in the end end even veterans end up playing it the new way and forget about the previous iterations. The cool thing is that they made it easier for people to pick up a class/spec and be passable at it. They know what they are doing, that's true. They still piss me off, but I'm an old fart and they don't care much about me after all (yet, they do).
 

Eidal

Molten Core Raider
2,001
213
They manage to piss off veterans at every xpack cycle, by removing or reworking stuff that doesn't need it, but in the end end even veterans end up playing it the new way and forget about the previous iterations. The cool thing is that they made it easier for people to pick up a class/spec and be passable at it. They know what they are doing, that's true. They still piss me off, but I'm an old fart and they don't care much about me after all (yet, they do).
I think a key distinction is they piss offsome veterans. The vocal minority is very vocal; you'd be hard pressed to find any decision Blizzard could make which would receive unilateral approval from all factions of its playerbase. And as you correctly pointed out, the mad vets do a lot of grumbling and come back anyway. I think the huge majority of Blizzard's playerbase is pretty chilled out and really doesn't care too much what Bliz does. If they aren't having fun they just do something else.

But, spend too long on forums and you start thinking everyone who plays a game is hugely invested in it and the slightest fractures in their pristine gameplay experience = pitchforks waving. That isn't indicative of the majority of people who play games.