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Woolygimp

Woolygimp

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Kiroy said:
Much wow very knowledge
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Sarcasm? I gave a quick summarization that a laymen could understand. It's not my job to educate you, nor am I writing a book on the subject.

I also think the Romans/Phoenicians reached the new world. They had triple masted ships capable of crossing the Atlantic. I'm sure a few were sent West, or were blown off course. Roman naval capability is drastically underrated. They had ships that could have crossed. Would they have sent a few West in the name of exploration? Well they sent emissaries East that reached China.

If you want to really understand how much knowledge was lost when Rome completely wiped the Phoenician culture off the face of the Earth, I welcome you to watch this documentary.
You will not regret watching this:

 
Woolygimp

Woolygimp

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consensus said:
Fall of Roman Empire linked to wild shifts in climate
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That's as much bullshit as lead poisoning causing the "fall". It may have played a part, especially in the prevalence and rise of disease and Smallpox/Bubonic Plague.

The Empire of the 1st and 2nd centuries would have easily repelled the barbarian migrations, like the Eastern Empire. Rome had lost 100,000 men in a STORM at sea in the 1st Punic War and still dominated. They had lost nearly half a million men in the 2nd Punic War. The Gauls had slaughtered a hundred thousand troops and then gotten destroyed when Marius reformed the army.

Battle of Arausio - Wikipedia

80,000 killed[2][3][4] or up to 120,000 killed if support troops and camp followers included[5][6]
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Rome always had more men to throw into the meat grinder. Yet suddenly they didn't. They were other factors at play.
 
Kiroy

Kiroy

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Woolygimp said:
Sarcasm? I gave a quick summarization that a laymen could understand. It's not my job to educate you, nor am I writing a book on the subject.

I also think the Romans/Phoenicians reached the new world. They had triple masted ships capable of crossing the Atlantic. I'm sure a few were sent West, or were blown off course. Roman naval capability is drastically underrated. They had ships that could have crossed. Would they have sent a few West in the name of exploration? Well they sent emissaries East that reached China.

If you want to really understand how much knowledge was lost when Rome completely wiped the Phoenician culture off the face of the Earth, I welcome you to watch this documentary.
You will not regret watching this:

Click to expand...

Fall of Roman Empire caused by 'contagion of homosexuality'
 
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TrollfaceDeux

TrollfaceDeux

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Woolygimp said:
That's as much bullshit as lead poisoning causing the "fall". It may have played a part, especially in the prevalence and rise of disease and Smallpox/Bubonic Plague.
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Yeah see...
Roman Empire didn't just fall...
You still have Byzantium Empire....which is literally a continuation of Roman Empire....
 
Woolygimp

Woolygimp

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I never said the Roman Empire fell. I said, "dissolution of the Western Roman Empire." Read my words.

The East was far, far richer because of trade, a church that wasn't as strong, and had a more defensible position. Gaul was a ripe target, and then North Africa.

The Battle of Cap Bon was the largest naval undertaking before Normandy and was lost because the Romans had a stupid commander. Had they won, and retaken North Africa from the Vandals the Western Empire would have continued. North Africa was their richest province, it's loss was the death nail.

Battle of Cap Bon (468) - Wikipedia

Ancient and modern historians provided different estimates for the number of ships and troops commanded by Basiliscus, as well as for the expenses of the expedition, although both were enormous sums. According to the text of Priscus, 100,000 ships were assembled, although modern scholars have emended this to 1100, which is closer to Cedrenus's figure of 1113 vessels.[3] The figures for the money spent on this expedition ranges from the 1300 centaria of gold reported by Priscus and Procopius (130,000 Roman pounds), to the 64,000 pounds of gold and 700,000 pounds of silver by John Lydus and to 65,000 of gold and 700,000 of silver by Candidus.[4]
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It was several years worth the entire income of both of the East and Western Empires, and it was sunk by a few fireships in a surprise attack. They should have disembarked, met up with the other armies, and crushed the Vandals on land.

Seriously, Cap Bon and later Yarmouk are the two most important battles in history. If the ERE had won at Yarmouk, Islam would NOT exist.
 
Zapatta

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OP is proof you should never smoke weed and jerk off to a Pixar movie.

plantex.jpg
 
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TrollfaceDeux

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Woolygimp said:
I never said the Roman Empire fell. I said, "dissolution of the Western Roman Empire." Read my words.

The East was far, far richer because of trade, a church that wasn't as strong, and had a more defensible position. Gaul was a ripe target, and then North Africa.

The Battle of Cap Bon was the largest naval undertaking before Normandy and was lost because the Romans had a stupid commander. Had they won, and retaken North Africa from the Vandals the Western Empire would have continued. North Africa was their richest province, it's loss was the death nail.

Battle of Cap Bon (468) - Wikipedia



It was several years worth the entire income of both of the East and Western Empires, and it was sunk by a few fireships in a surprise attack. They should have disembarked, met up with the other armies, and crushed the Vandals on land.

Seriously, Cap Bon and later Yarmouk are the two most important battles in history. If the ERE had won at Yarmouk, Islam would NOT exist.
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Well..no..you attributed the fall of Roman Empire to the Christianity yet Roman Empire still stood in the East....with largely Christian population...

And I quote,
Gibbon was absolutely correct that Christianity was one of the largest causes for the dissolution of the WRE.
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I mean, this is pretty retarded assessment anyway. I don't know much about the fall of Roman Empire, but I sure as hell would bet my ass on climate change as the only factor in the complete collapse of the West and resilience of the East.
 
Woolygimp

Woolygimp

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I posted my reasons for the difference. The West was weaker, less easily defended, and Gaul/North Africa were prime vulnerable targets for settling. Why would they go East?

The Vandals clearly targeted North Africa. It was very rich and the Romans could not defend it.

The Theodosian Walls were NEVER breached in history before the advent of gunpowder. They were the most formidable defenses in the world for nearly 1,000 years. They made Constantinople literally unconquerable from land with Medieval tech.
 
Zapatta

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Woolygimp said:
Fuck you guys. I'm posting good and accurate information, and I get this kind of response?
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Sounds like our differences can only be resolved mano a mano. Shall it be heads up no limit hold em or 20 paces at the gun range?
 
AngryGerbil

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Dandain said:
I never said I had a solution for something different Gerbil, its still a weakness of capitalism. Teacher's are one of the most valuable societal services we have, and yet our education system sucks. Many individuals who would be great amazing educators do not in modern America because it is very clearly a trade-off in economic opportunity. If you don't see any weaknesses in capitalism great, it can be worshiped as an idol instead of Muhammad.
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I don't think it's perfect, I think it's practical and it works. To seek perfection in economics or biology is to seek destruction. The idea that there is some perfect top-down system out there just waiting for us to discover it, is practically the same thing as believing in God. Both ideas lead to totalitarianism. Fuck that shit. I'll take my imperfect earthly animalistic capitalism all day any day. I'll stay right here on earth. Y'all can look for heaven if you want.
 
Dandain

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I'd engage you in this discussion but you're making comments as if you have no room to discuss anything and everything I've said is extremist drivel. First, I think its a bit of a jump to come to the conclusion in my argument that I am "seeking perfection". I only stated there are obvious flaws in capitalism, I also am not championing any other system that I am aware of. Why is the system that potentially could replace capitalism only top-down? I never made any claims to this point. From my point of view even us Atheists think unmoderated greed is not a moral way of being. Capitalism absolutely harnesses greed no matter how you want to spin it, that seems less than ideal assuming there is any other option, after all it took thousands of years to capitalism like ours to emerge. But if that's all we are, all we can achieve, then sure I guess whatever your point is you've made it very eloquently.

Certainly deflect the point of my points, if your ultimate position is that you really don't give a shit about this discussion, then just don't waste time with another response quoting me.
 
AngryGerbil

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Dandain said:
I'd engage you in this discussion but you're making comments as if you have no room to discuss anything and everything I've said is extremist drivel. First, I think its a bit of a jump to come to the conclusion in my argument that I am "seeking perfection". I only stated there are obvious flaws in capitalism, I also am not championing any other system that I am aware of. Why is the system that potentially could replace capitalism only top-down? I never made any claims to this point. From my point of view even us Atheists think unmoderated greed is not a moral way of being. Capitalism absolutely harnesses greed no matter how you want to spin it, that seems less than ideal assuming there is any other option, after all it took thousands of years to capitalism like ours to emerge. But if that's all we are, all we can achieve, then sure I guess whatever your point is you've made it very eloquently.

Certainly deflect the point of my points, if your ultimate position is that you really don't give a shit about this discussion, then just don't waste time with another response quoting me.
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Fair enough. I was feeling frisky last night and probably summoned a Little Red General in my head to argue against. My bad.
 
Woolygimp

Woolygimp

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Bandwagon said:
Lol. You're tough to like.
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To be fair I'm responding to information that is totally incorrect and shit like,"wooly jerks it to Pixar."

Look man, the only way climate change could collapse the West was if people began starving. They weren't. North Africa was still producing massive amounts of food and income until the Vandals conquered it.

Christianity DID cause the downfall. I said Gibbons was essentially correct, because Christianity only arose from desperation from widespread disease. If the West stood, the East wins their 100,000 vs 20,000 at Yarmouk and both Christianity and Islam are wiped out.

The West stretched from Carthage to Britain. Climate and lead poisoning were minor factors at best. A strong Empire would have slaughtered the mass migrations. 500,000 dead against Hannibal and in the end they erased Phoenician history from history, to the extent that this very day we know nothing really except the Romans hated them.

Look, I may not be totally correct but I've spent ten years studying this topic in depth. I think our civilization is also vulnerable to the same factors that caused their collapse.

Plague caused a chain reaction that wiped them out. Rome didn't have the advantages of the best defenses in the world, like Constantinople. Having your capital sacked was a massive loss of wealth a morale.

Note the Eastern Roman Empire dwindled and fell not long after the Frank's betrayed them and sacked the city from the inside in the crusades.
 
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mkopec

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Dandain said:
... leverages human greed as the prime motivator.
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And what a wonderful way to motivate people to innovate, make shit better, advance the general well being, health, and happiness of people than leveraging greed. I mean, think about that for a second. People say greed and its always negative thoughts, people stealing your shit, taking shit away, but its through peoples greed that we got the entire advancement weve been experiencing in the last 150 yrs. One's desire for fame and recognition and fortune can drive him to do great things. Id rather have an economy that rewards ambition and greed than one that smothers it. Judge capitalism not by the motives of the capitalists but by its fruit. And, oh we all enjoy those fruits, dont we?
 
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