World of Warcraft: Classic

Daezuel said:

Those aren't "raids," they're small group content. The less people you are forced to interact with the smaller your world becomes.

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If you need to be forced to interact with people I've found your problem. Herding cats isn't fun. The only time a 40 person raid is enjoyable is if you're AFKing doing other shit while the people who are paying attention kill everything for you. And that's what happens. Half the raid force ends up being practically useless because they suck at the game, have no respect for other people's time, or are a combination of both those things.

Forget raiding altogether and make everything in the game group-centric.

We had 80-100 people raids in EQ1 a couple times (waking the sleeper and Rallos Zek zerg during Planes of Power springs to mind).

It didn't feel epic. It felt like a fucking slideshow. I usually had to stare at the floor to avoid freezing.

In any event, the days of massive raids that aren't PUG friendly are gone (outside of zerg fest shit). FFXIV has 24 man alliance raids, but they're totally doable with randos (usually...the pre-expansion lull is fucking painful right now lol) even though they can have mechanics where if 1 person fucks up, it can potentially get people killed. But FFXIV also has pretty forgiving resurrection mechanics for those raids as well.

At a certain point, though, adding more bodies becomes a crutch to encounter design. Mob HP is usually what they buff and damage is also buffed to account for the fact you probably have lots of healers. Actual encounter complexity is typically limited, though. Even in old WoW, the most complex it got was usually just splitting into a number of sub groups to deal with adds during various encounters, like AQ40 or Naxx.

Khane said:

Forget raiding altogether and make everything in the game group-centric.

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Yes, there are a bunch of players that are anti-social incels IRL and need to be forced to interact with others to obtain loot and accomplish game goals. Making those people interact with the other social people that would interact with each other no matter what makes the community bigger and in the end is better for the game *IMO*. Maybe carrying people in an MMORPG should be an intended design? It seems more inclusive, I don't know.

If you want to call an 8 or 10 man a raid be my guest, I just disagree. That's not to say there isn't a place for that content or that I've never liked it, I just don't want raids having multiple modes because there are too many people that will take the easy way out if given the choice and I don't want to be forced to only join guilds that have one type of personality.

Its been interesting reading the BFA thread and reading how everyone is super nostalgic about solo content in Legion. It's obvious that some of us want a different kind of game and that's totally ok.

I've had fun in all sorts of content, the 20 mans in Vanilla, the 10 & 25 mans in TBC/Wotlk/Cata. I just think something was lost moving to smaller raid sizes and I realize full well how painful recruiting for a guild is, I've run guilds before in WoW and other MMO's.

I'm absolutely not opposed to adding more contested, interesting world content, and reducing instancing as much as possible but that's just not going to happen here.

I said arguing is pointless in this thread because Classic is coming with 40 man raids whether you like it or not so me convincing anyone that an opinion is somehow superior to anyone else's is moot.

Daezuel said:

Its been interesting reading the BFA thread and reading how everyone is super nostalgic about solo content in Legion. It's obvious that some of us want a different kind of game and that's totally ok.

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But I kind of think those are two different arguments, the game is NOT an MMO anymore. Would I like that to change? Absolutely but it's not going to because they have to appease a very wide audience or else it's completely dead. Mage Tower was challenging and one of the few things left in the entire game that offered you something for actual hard work, and you can't do it off the backs of anybody else.

If this is how the current state of the game is going to be, I at least want it to have the good bits that existed just a year ago.

They will NEVER go back to one raid difficulty, but they might actually do 10 man mythic one day (doubt it).

My enthusiasm for classic is already waning. 40 man raids, with raid leaders looking for top tier dps specs and pure healers on pvp servers with no dual-spec is killing it. Add in the debuff limit and I start shaking my head. There are very good reasons we asked for these systems, they do not detract from the game but improve it -- but it isn't classic.

Sabbat said:

My enthusiasm for classic is already waning. 40 man raids, with raid leaders looking for top tier dps specs and pure healers on pvp servers with no dual-spec is killing it. Add in the debuff limit and I start shaking my head. There are very good reasons we asked for these systems, they do not detract from the game but improve it -- but it isn't classic.

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Once the novelty wears off, people will start to remember why lots of this shit changed.

I'll say it again, what made vanilla wow good was the people, and the people existed because they couldn't server xfer or do cross realm shit. The mechanics of vanilla wow were horrid.

Horrid by today's standards, but compared to EQ1 and other MMOs at the time, it was amazing.

sadris said:

I'll say it again, what made vanilla wow good was the people, and the people existed because they couldn't server xfer or do cross realm shit. The mechanics of vanilla wow were horrid.

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It was also immersion. Blizzard nailed this in vanilla, when you logged into WoW at any level it felt like I was really exploring another world, it was huge, vast... and it will be fun again, there was charm and attention to detail everywhere. FWIW I still play baldur's gate series every couple years and it's great every time. That's the thing with MMOs, they evolve to appeal to the masses and generate more revenue... can't go back and play how it was when I played em ...

Chanur said:

The things I liked about vanilla WoW were the mechanics required you to be social on your server. This really built community. Thanks to cross realm LFD/LFR/PvP shit none of that is the case anymore. I think that shit destroyed the game.

As for raid size I don't care. I think both sizes have advantages. I just don't like all the difficulty settings or changing raid sizes. Pick one size and stick with it. I would rather see that development spent on more raid content. I think raids should have a difficulty progression with the entry raids being the easiest and the final raids being the equivalent of mythic + or what ever garbage it is today.

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If you made the intros easy and the final raids mythic even LESS people would see them than in vanilla

Chanur said:

That's up to them but they would have a clear progression path to work through with an incentive to do so. The incentive in the current game is largely missing.

Also Asmongold didn't know what Savory Deviate Delight was.

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I'm.actually pretty sure he didn't play vanilla very seriously, getting a sneaking suspicion. Just watch him pvp, he has no idea what he's doing.

I just think a lot of people don't realize how hard mythic is. If you want one difficulty the only thing that would work is something between heroic and mythic