World of Warcraft: Classic

Older AV isn't going to accomplish what you think it is though. I agree with the PvP implementation and the honor system being... bad. What you say is true about being able to defend easier but when you get 12 carrots for bypassing everything and rushing to a quick victory and 7 carrots even if you lose, but only get 1.5 carrots if you take objectives, turtle, stall, and generally play the way the BG was originally intended the problem is the carrots.

The honor system is the carrot distribution system. Those carrots are what people want and it's basic human instinct to get what we want in the easiest, fastest way possible.

Torrid said:

It was much easier to defend in older versions of AV because there were NPCs to hide behind/aggro on players, particularly for Horde players. I used to run up the horde towers after being attacked to sick all the NPCs inside on them. Horde base now has virtually nothing. People started general racing in patch 1.11 after NPCs were removed and it became regular in 1.12 with xserver BGs.

Blizzard, as the game masters, have the responsibility to try and corral players in a way that encourages fights between equally equipped and skilled players. This is critical to the success of any PvP system and Blizzard fails to do this so badly. My suggestions would not change the honor system or game mechanics in any way and if anything make the game more classic, not less. Everybody wants older AV for this and other reasons anyway

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They made rated BGs, about as equal as you can get, and people hated those too. Old AV was only fun cause it was new...at the time.

Jox said:

They made rated BGs, about as equal as you can get, and people hated those too. Old AV was only fun cause it was new...at the time.

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Rated BGs, and Arenas - which arenas come out in TBC so you'll be in heaven.

I don't think it's blizzards responsibility to tell players how to play. That's why BFA is where it is right now.

Old AV was fun because you actually PVPed, you know in a pvp battleground.

Why we are getting pvp rewards for a PVE rush is beyond me. Killing NPCs shouldn't give you the best honor/hour. There is a reason so many people are asking for 2 day AVs again (because they were more fun than 7 minute pve zergs).

Increasing resistance on the easiest path is what we are looking for here, there is no problem with rewards(carrots), only that it's too easy and too fast to get them by avoiding pvp.

And people only did that because it was new, the honor system hadn't changed to "objective heavy" yet, and people didn't really know the map well.

Increasing resistance on the "easiest path" is what made them change to objective based in the first place. They were unhappy that people were ignoring all objectives and farming honor in the field of strife or on the bridge to vanndar. They didn't like that battles were taking days because farming honor in zerg balls was efficient.

Everyone who remembers original AV as some epic PVP tactical engagement probably clicked their skills and drooled all over their keyboard. It was every bit as boring and exhausting, it was just a different type of zerg aimed at maximizing honor gains for the honor system that currently existed.

Instanced PvP sucks in an open world MMO. It takes the Massive out of the MMO completely. It's fucking stupid. It doesn't matter what Blizzard does AV is never going to be good. Especially when the map is lopsided and we have to deal with a hard faction separation which causes faction imbalance and queue issues for said instanced PvP. It's like rationing water except you have to pay for the privelege to get in queue.

So they were unhappy that you avoided NPCs and actually pvped so they removed the pvp. And you are defending this decision? Why? God forbid PVP be efficient for honor, lol. We've all known it was a shitty version of AV and badmouthed it for 15 years. You can see us in this thread bitching about it before it was even released this time. Avoiding pvp should never grant you pvp rewards.

It's just a different type of zerg? Agreed: do you not understand we'd rather have a PVP zerg than an NPC zerg for PVP rewards?

Instanced pvp sucks in a open world? So no matter what they do, you won't be happy. Got it. Also guess what? Open world pvp sucks too in this stupid game.

But like, with elves.

Khane said:

Older AV isn't going to accomplish what you think it is though. I agree with the PvP implementation and the honor system being... bad. What you say is true about being able to defend easier but when you get 12 carrots for bypassing everything and rushing to a quick victory and 7 carrots even if you lose, but only get 1.5 carrots if you take objectives, turtle, stall, and generally play the way the BG was originally intended the problem is the carrots.

The honor system is the carrot distribution system. Those carrots are what people want and it's basic human instinct to get what we want in the easiest, fastest way possible.

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The idea is that older AV + queue randomness will mitigate the problems with the horribly bad carrot design, not fix it entirely. Options are very limited due to this being a recreation, and older AV is something that is doable while still being true to the goal of being a creation. (also I want land mines)

I did 5 AVs last night with 20 minute queues. All ended up vs alliance premades. 3 ended in 7-8 minutes. Two were slower losses because they were bad premades. With older AV at least I could use NPCs such that I could actually get a fight instead of 30+ alliance rolling over me and without premades defenders would certainly win before they had any graveyards, forcing them to actually do something other than run directly to Drek and ignore literally everything else on the map.

Also warmasters not linking to Drek should be fixed. (Van too) Fuck #nochanges on that

All I want to do is PvP in a PvP game. It's dumb I have to argue for this

You guys are acting like I made the decision. I didn't do it... that's just what happened. Well they also did it because people were honor trading in WSG and out in the open world. I wasnt defending anything. That's just what happened and Blizzard has never really been good at fixing major issues since the inception of WoW. They take the path of least resistance just like the playerbase.

But AV or any iteration thereof isn't going to change shit. Every player knows the map, knows the best way to gain honor and because of that there is no going back. It's not a difficult concept yet so many people are under the impression that time travel is real, as long as its digital.

You literally can never go back

I know I keep saying this but I mean... sounds like what you guys want is some retail AV.

If you can get 10 people together to defend you can force the game to be a deathmatch and it's just a meat grinder until one team loses 600 lives. Even better cause Balinda takes like an extra 100 off so you have a reason to actually kill her. I think towers also take 50 or so off, so you have a reason to defend/take them.

I feel like you guys are definitely mis-remembering. Original AV took forever. I could leave games and then come back hours later, re-queue and get into the same game. Nobody would even play that now that they know exactly how the honor system works. Not to mention AV was pretty much dead after people hit Exalted and got their unstoppable force or whatever they wanted. Does that mean current AV is good? Of course not, but I don’t think the original version is the solution either.

They just need to drop the Diminishing returns out and PVP will happen. Can honor trading even happen in 40 man BGs that are cross realm?

The current horde strategy involves turtling hard in the keep, retaking IB and TP towers and having a group picking off stragglers in the field of strife or IB checkpoint. Since horde typically are 94% undead mages/shadow priests (almost exaggerating), it's very hard to pull the warmasters/drek without great difficulty. 25% of alliance being AFK, fishing, farming makes it even harder to close games.

I've been doing premades since it began and it went from 7-8 minute wins to now consistently needing 20+ minute with more frequent losses as well. It has become shit for honor since after the 4th kill you aren't even getting any honor from the suicide bombers in the keep.

"It has become shit for honor "

Which doesn't matter, as honor is not a currency but a rating mechanic. Whether you get 500k or 10k a week is irrelevant, you just need to get more than the others, and since everyone now "suffers" AV with PVP, the only thing that matters is how much time you put into playing. Only if AV drops below WSG premade chain winning you have a "problem"

If you are focused on maximizing honor, you can earn more per game than the people fishing or AFK in the tunnel by going to places on the map where actual PvP kills are happening, or somewhere you can pick off people from the other faction yourself. It’s not enough to overcome people playing twice as many games as you but it does add up.

Dinadass said:

If you are focused on maximizing honor, you can earn more per game than the people fishing or AFK in the tunnel by going to places on the map where actual PvP kills are happening, or somewhere you can pick off people from the other faction yourself. It’s not enough to overcome people playing twice as many games as you but it does add up.

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Untrue because of diminishing returns.

Ortega said:

I could leave games and then come back hours later, re-queue and get into the same game. Nobody would even play that now that they know exactly how the honor system works. Not to mention AV was pretty much dead after people hit Exalted and got their unstoppable force or whatever they wanted.

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1) 8 hour games would not happen with today's playerbase, client and hardware.

2) *I* would play that because AV when done 'legit' is my favorite activity in the game and a large reason I subbed to begin with, hence why I'm super pissed over what it turned into.

3) It's dying as-is because nobody goes back after exalted unless ranking and queue times are steadily rising because of it. Two and a half weeks in and queues are nearly 30 minutes.

nisser said:

it's very hard to pull the warmasters/drek without great difficulty. 25% of alliance being AFK, fishing, farming makes it even harder to close games.

I've been doing premades since it began and it went from 7-8 minute wins to now consistently needing 20+ minute with more frequent losses as well. It has become shit for honor since after the 4th kill you aren't even getting any honor from the suicide bombers in the keep.

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My horde PUG beat an alliance premade last night. I was amused.

Complaining about not being able to cheese Drek away from warmasters is funny. Heaven forbid you have to destory a tower. The entire purpose of them is to force you to play the map as intended.

Chanur said:

As an alliance pug I win 1 in 20 or games now. My rep has grinded to a halt it seems like. Many games idiot alliance can't take a single objective and I feel like the only onw trying to take IBT or TP or FW etc.

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I was able to finish it out but yeah, it got brutal. Team fails on Galv, takes 40 minutes to lose the match, rep gains are pitiful, queue back up, team fails on Galv. When Classic 2.0 comes out in 2023 I'm doing all the AV rep immediately. Waiting even a few days made the final stretch very unpleasant. Doing it again now start to finish on an alt or something has to be miserable.

nisser said:

Untrue because of diminishing returns.

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How does DR factor in to this? Every NA server is lumped into one battlegroup so it's unlikely to face more than a few people multiple times a day, and most 15-20 minute AVs you only kill people a few times.