World of Warcraft: Current Year

xmod2

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Good news from what Yoshi-P hinted at after being asked for something like M+: He just grinned and said "we are envisioning something like a challenge, like who can be the fastest." But you have to wait for the announcement."

That immediately sounded more like MoP challenge modes than M+ in my head.
I just want hard dungeons like OG tbc heroics or Mists challenge mode without a goofy timer. If you want to add a timer, make it diegetic like Baron runs or ZA or something. Doing M+ on release when everyone is undergeared trying to push keys is when it's fun, when you're not even sure if you could clear the fucking dungeon let alone time it. Once it becomes autistic adherence to a route in order to min/max the time to clear, it destroys the point of an mmoRPG to me.
 

Chris

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They also wasted storybeats by squandering S-Tier threats, like Azshara
This is the most puzzling thing to me.

Cataclysm wasted a potential Elemental Planes expansion by doing part of it as a mid expansion patch, it then went on to waste the Infinite Dragonflight in the end patch.

Pandaria stretched a small island into a whole expansion and did a great job.

Legion wasted Emerald Dream after it had already been wasted in a novel. It then wasted Argus in the end expansion patch. This is after stretching another small island into a continent with mixed results.

BfA again stretched two small islands into continents before wasting Naz'jatar/Ashara and Nyalotha/N'Zoth.

It's just an inconsistent mess of turning anticipated zones into expansion continents and anticipated expansion continents into zones.

The culprits (Cataclysm/Legion/BfA) all wasted TWO expansion ideas each too.
 

xmod2

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Even back in WotLK they threw away Azjol-Nerub for no reason. I know my friends were super excited and then Anub'arak was just a dungeon boss. They brought him back in that shitty raid that killed Ulduar, but it still was a waste of potential.
 
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jayrebb

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This is the most puzzling thing to me.

Cataclysm wasted a potential Elemental Planes expansion by doing part of it as a mid expansion patch, it then went on to waste the Infinite Dragonflight in the end patch.

Pandaria stretched a small island into a whole expansion and did a great job.

Legion wasted Emerald Dream after it had already been wasted in a novel. It then wasted Argus in the end expansion patch. This is after stretching another small island into a continent with mixed results.

BfA again stretched two small islands into continents before wasting Naz'jatar/Ashara and Nyalotha/N'Zoth.

It's just an inconsistent mess of turning anticipated zones into expansion continents and anticipated expansion continents into zones.

The culprits (Cataclysm/Legion/BfA) all wasted TWO expansion ideas each too.

Only expac that can get my money at this point is Elune.

We go to the moon.
 
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Chris

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Only expac that can get my money at this point is Elune.

We go to the moon.
Yeah I thought about that and it would be pretty amazing and a good way to do a new lore expansion.

BUT

Final Fantasy 14 are going to the moon next month which is a reference to Final Fantasy 4 going to the moon in 1991.

So Blizzard are going to be hit with a double whammy of copying Everquest's moon expansion and even worse, copying Final Fantasy 14.

Then there is this weird new Elune lore that makes her some sort of cosmic entity that influences multiple worlds, so probably wouldn't just be chilling on Azeroth's moon.
 
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Neranja

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I for the life of me cannot understand why so many of you faggots want a goddamn house to play more barbie doll fairy faggot dress up in. It's a stupid concept for stupid people. Nobody cares of wants to see your virtual shit.
That's funny, because Preach, who was the very definition of a min/max raider in WoW, went to an FFXIV night club and enjoyed it. He got made fun of by saying that he got "de-mazed in record time", as in deconditioned of being an ant running around in Bobby Kotick's maze.

 
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Neranja

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Mists challenge mode without a goofy timer. If you want to add a timer, make it diegetic like Baron runs or ZA or something. Doing M+ on release when everyone is undergeared trying to push keys is when it's fun, when you're not even sure if you could clear the fucking dungeon let alone time it. Once it becomes autistic adherence to a route in order to min/max the time to clear, it destroys the point of an mmoRPG to me.
Weren't MoP challange modes on a timer though? God, it's been so many years.

I mostly blame the overarching WoW design on creating the WoW PUG culture, where you have to adhere to the autistic min/maxing, and where you have to play the current meta spec or you won't even get invited. No one plays for fun and challenge anymore, only for rewards.

Not losing your M+ key level on failure would go a long way. They could implement this as dual-mode:
a) "safe mode", where you don't lose your M+ key but only get max +1 on your key on a successful clear
b) "challenge mode", where you can deplete your key, but can get up to +5 on success.

Make Keystone Master and achievements only eligible on challenge mode, and you have a "learning mode on wheels" for players trying to get into M+ or playing more casually.
 

xmod2

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Weren't MoP challange modes on a timer though? God, it's been so many years.
Yes, they were on a timer and with normalized gear. If you wanted rewards, you had to beat them in a certain amount of time. For some groups though, clearing them was challenging enough.

I never understood the timer as some metric of skill. Like if people want to take a long time to clear the content 'sub optimally', who gives a shit? Speed running leads to maladaptive gameplay and the exact kind of thinking that makes people think of things as 'game systems to be optimized' vs a game world to explore/exist in (ie soulless). For M+ it was always easy enough to cap out your weekly gear reward anyway. The painful part was farming M+ constantly for titanforge procs.

I just want dungeons that require actual CC/thinking to move through and bosses that require actual proper mechanic execution to complete. Target the difficult between heroic and mythic raiding. PVE dungeon crawling only, if you clear the dungeon, your 'key' for that zone increases. When you start a dungeon, you can select any difficulty below your max unlocked difficulty. Keep the 'normalized' ilvl and make everything cosmetic / status rewards. Having hard small group content to play with your friends is enough.
 
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jayrebb

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BFA speedruns were fun, SL speedruns are anti-fun. Subs are nonexistent. That jives.

I don't know who the fuck designed SL dungeons. But blow for blow, it's fucking disgusting the drop in quality from BFA.
 
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BoozeCube

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Look at that games done quick bullshit you guys were linking before to see the type of person attracted to speedruns. They are all retards, trannies, and turbofag autist. Now think of who Blizzard hires.
 
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Penance

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Look at that games done quick bullshit you guys were linking before to see the type of person attracted to speedruns. They are all retards, trannies, and turbofag autist. Now think of who Blizzard hires.
Was about to come here to speak up in the defense of time mechanics.

1635092500489.png
 
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Zindan

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That's funny, because Preach, who was the very definition of a min/max raider in WoW, went to an FFXIV night club and enjoyed it. He got made fun of by saying that he got "de-mazed in record time", as in deconditioned of being an ant running around in Bobby Kotick's maze.

I can't really take this guy seriously, or any "ex" WoW streamers who went to FFXIV. They act like they are experiencing something amazing in FFXIV to get support from the FFXIV fanbase, to a degree. Raiding in FFXIV seems even more like being a lab rat vs. WoW, but both are shit. But if they are able to pull people away from Blizzard, and let them see that at least FFXIV is a solid game, so be it.
 
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Cybsled

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I think they like raiding in FF because

1) WoW has a bad habit of artificially gating content to gear levels - not to say FF doesn't have gear checks for some content, but in WoW it is a lot worse. That makes it so you can't just "jump in" and try the content

2) It rewards mechanical competency far more - executing on mechanics and your rotations.

3) Forgiveness mechanics for mistakes in FF are much higher. Ultimates not so much, but pre-ultimate you can have some buffer to fuck ups moreso than WoW does (mostly in regards to the res limit in WoW)

4) They're just more visually appealing and have objectively bettter music. Hard for WoW to compete here, given the age of the game.
 

Chris

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I can't really take this guy seriously, or any "ex" WoW streamers who went to FFXIV. They act like they are experiencing something amazing in FFXIV to get support from the FFXIV fanbase, to a degree. Raiding in FFXIV seems even more like being a lab rat vs. WoW, but both are shit. But if they are able to pull people away from Blizzard, and let them see that at least FFXIV is a solid game, so be it.
Raiding in FF14 is far better than in WoW.

You spend all your time fighting the boss, there's no corpse run and there's no trash hallways (just a few mini bosses and trash encounters in 24 mans). You learn it and you kill it.

WoW you have all sorts of bullshit to deal with with shit lore and shit music.
 

Malkav

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These people are also discovering that not everything in a game has to be about gear progresssion. That's why you'll see them amazed at the housing scene or stuck in the Gold Saucer : because they finally understand you can have fun things that are not combat related.
 
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Neranja

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Raiding in FFXIV seems even more like being a lab rat vs. WoW, but both are shit.
I don't know what you are getting at. "Raiding" has been lauded as the crown jewel of WoW, at least since Ion was "lead encounter designer." And even more so since he was promoted to "game director." It was pretty obvious that they wanted to funnel everyone into raids by adding LFR (also called tourist mode), but at the same time made the fences you need to jump over higher and higher, as to being viable for high end raiding.

What broke all those WoW raiders minds was the fact that they could boost/level a character, and then were handed their crafted and pentamelded (think enchanting/jewelcrafting rolled into one) gear, which was optimal for the raids.

No treadmill, no bullshit systems to grind up, no "domination sockets that are totally like tier sets", no mission tables, no reputations for sockets/enchants, no dailies, and especially: no timegating all of that. Raids are released worldwide at the same time, with no PTR testing, no datamining, no addons and weakauras, and the best of all: the raids are tested inhouse and have no bugs.

ion.jpg
 
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Zindan

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I think they like raiding in FF because

1) WoW has a bad habit of artificially gating content to gear levels - not to say FF doesn't have gear checks for some content, but in WoW it is a lot worse. That makes it so you can't just "jump in" and try the content

2) It rewards mechanical competency far more - executing on mechanics and your rotations.

3) Forgiveness mechanics for mistakes in FF are much higher. Ultimates not so much, but pre-ultimate you can have some buffer to fuck ups moreso than WoW does (mostly in regards to the res limit in WoW)

4) They're just more visually appealing and have objectively bettter music. Hard for WoW to compete here, given the age of the game.
If you're at the point where you don't want to kill trash or go through a stronghold, you have become bored with "raiding" and just want boss encounters. It is at this point where the dev's feel they have to start adding more and more and more mechanics to maintain a players interest, regardless of whether those mechanics make any sense at all for the fight. FFXIV has went to extremes in this regard, the only thing about them which I'll agree is great, is the music. Top notch. Everything else is just generic mass mechanics, as with every other game. To me, this makes the players nothing more than lab rats, and the "raids" pure shit.

Example:


Granted the UI makes this even worse, but there is nothing visually appealing about that mess, nor does it look interesting at all. Just a bunch of rats following the proper steps to get their reward... like lab rats going through a maze. I think any fight in Monster Hunter far exceeds any raid in FFXIV/WoW current MMO for fun. Yet, I am sure there are people who would look at that video and think its amazing, and I'm sure I'm in the minority with thinking it looks like shit.
 
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Neranja

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I think any fight in Monster Hunter far exceeds any raid in FFXIV/WoW current MMO for fun.
So your whole point is that you prefer pure twitch-based and action-focused experience. Which is actually matter of taste, and not superiority.

And also contradicts the traditional RPG stat elements, where your character has attributes like "dodge", "block" and "parry", and does this automatically, while in action-based you are supposed to do this yourself. That's the crux of the problem: traditional MMORPG combat evolved via EverQuest from things like DikuMUD, which in turn evolved from P&P.
 
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