Worth going all Apple?

Silence_sl

shitlord
2,459
4
I am constantly amazed at how similar all of these anti-Apple complaints are. They're all based on complete ignorance and frank stupidity. The implication that all Mac users are computer illiterate morons may have been true 15 years ago, but get with the times. Macs are built on Unix. With 5 keystrokes (Cmd-Space, "ter", {return}) I'm in a bash shell. Please go on to brag about your DOS shell, lol.
smile.png
And the "twice as expensive" comment is pure trolling. We already demonstrated in this thread that you cannot, in fact, come up with a piece of hardware that is just as nice as a Mac for really any cheaper.
It's pretty funny that you use the words, "ignorance" "stupidity" when addressing anti-apple complaints, yet call WPS a "DOS" shell. That's a really strong way to shoot any of your future pro-apple arguments in each foot.

Twice.
 

Seventh

Golden Squire
892
15
I made the switch to 100% Mac at home about 3 years ago. For reference, I was an IT manager for 10 years, MCSE, and am an engineer now with a development environment that's about 50/50 Windows/Linux. I don't hate Windows because I use OSX, and I don't give a fuck what kind of computer someone else uses because I am not 14 years old.

My home setup is a 27" iMac, a 15" MBP, a brand new MBAir and a Mac Mini that I use as an HTPC. I also have an iPhone and an iPad. I made the switch cold, having only used OSX a handful of times ages ago, and within a year there wasn't a single Windows box left in my house. The "mac tax" is definitely something that exists, but it's an acceptable tradeoff for me because of how infinitely better of an operating system OSX is than Windows. When you run an Apple OS on Apple hardware, you'll never have to worry about proprietary drivers. Software updates are rolled into one big package, and you'll never have to go through the Windows circus of install update/reboot/install another update/reboot/install another update/reboot. You'll never have to deal with the fucking registry, superfetch, phantom 100% CPU use processes that you can't quit out of, etc etc. You also get an actual shell, instead of Cygwin. Etc, etc, etc.

The list goes on, but the bottom line for me was that the OS is just better, and after 3 years I spend almost zero time having to fuck with my computer to get it to work correctly. You can't say that about Windows. I deal with Windows all day long at my job, and when I get home I just want shit to work. When you pair one Apple device with another Apple device, 99% of the time it works right away with no fucking around. I have plenty of third party peripherals and generally speaking unless you're buying some crazy Chinese off-brand, OSX tends to support them fairly well. Macs also tend to hold their value pretty well. If you spend $1200 on a Macbook, you can easily get $600 for it 3 years later when it's time to upgrade, whereas your $600 Dell laptop is worth exactly nothing in that same time frame.

TLDR: Yes, the hardware is overpriced, but OSX is worth it.
 

BrutulTM

Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun.
<Silver Donator>
14,472
2,274
When you run an Apple OS on Apple hardware, you'll never have to worry about proprietary drivers. Software updates are rolled into one big package, and you'll never have to go through the Windows circus of install update/reboot/install another update/reboot/install another update/reboot. You'll never have to deal with the fucking registry, superfetch, phantom 100% CPU use processes that you can't quit out of, etc etc. You also get an actual shell, instead of Cygwin. Etc, etc, etc.
Don't think I have experienced any of these things since Windows 7 came out? Or even the last service pack of XP.
 

Seventh

Golden Squire
892
15
Don't think I have experienced any of these things since Windows 7 came out? Or even the last service pack of XP.
You obviously don't work in a tech field then. If you're a home user who knows his/her shit, keeping one single computer up and running well is fairly straightforward. If you're in the industry, like many of us here, and you lay hands on 50-100+ different Windows machines in a given day, you will run into every one of those things regularly. Especially in corporate environments that have control standards.

Again I'm not a Windows hater. If I was going to build a gaming rig it would definitely be a Windows box. But if you're saying that Windows 7 is as stable as OSX, you're either looking at a very small sample size or completely out of your mind.
 

Gabe_sl

shitlord
13
0
My home setup is a 27" iMac, a 15" MBP, a brand new MBAir and a Mac Mini that I use as an HTPC. I also have an iPhone and an iPad.
I was thinking of just using an MBAir or Pro as a desktop replacement with two Thunderbolt monitors at home instead of an iMac or Mini. I like the idea of taking everything with me in a heartbeat without worrying about synching, etc. Is that practical?
 

Seventh

Golden Squire
892
15
I was thinking of just using an MBAir or Pro as a desktop replacement with two Thunderbolt monitors at home instead of an iMac or Mini. I like the idea of taking everything with me in a heartbeat without worrying about synching, etc. Is that practical?
I don't see why it wouldn't be, but it all depends what you're looking to do. I use a MBP for just about everything at work that isn't vMWare related. The only thing I can think of offhand is that a 16GB memory upgrade for an iMac (4GBx4) is a lot cheaper than a MBP would be (8GBx2) but with RAM so cheap these days it's kind of a non-issue. I'd go with the Pro though - I travel a lot for work, and love the Air for that situation (planes, hotels, etc) but the Pro is definitely nicer for day to day use. The new retina ones are ridiculous.
 

Silence_sl

shitlord
2,459
4
You obviously don't work in a tech field then. If you're a home user who knows his/her shit, keeping one single computer up and running well is fairly straightforward. If you're in the industry, like many of us here, and you lay hands on 50-100+ different Windows machines in a given day, you will run into every one of those things regularly. Especially in corporate environments that have control standards.

Again I'm not a Windows hater. If I was going to build a gaming rig it would definitely be a Windows box. But if you're saying that Windows 7 is as stable as OSX, you're either looking at a very small sample size or completely out of your mind.
Yeah, in a mixed-box Windows environment, shit can get to be a pain in the ass.

Beyond that, Windows7can be every bit as stable as OSX. Just choose the proper hardware from the motherboard up and they are perfect. Tight controls over quality hardware and good drivers can do wonders for an OS...just ask Apple.
 

BrutulTM

Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun.
<Silver Donator>
14,472
2,274
But if you're saying that Windows 7 is as stable as OSX, you're either looking at a very small sample size or completely out of your mind.
I have 3 windows 7 machines in my house that run 24-7 and none of them have ever crashed that I can recall, they update themselves in the middle of the night, and I have never experienced any of the things you have mentioned. I don't have mass data of Windows 7 vs OSX but Windows 7 is extremely stable and your suggestion that windows has constant stability problems is nonsense.
 

Frenzied Wombat

Potato del Grande
14,730
31,802
15+ year tech field worker here with approximately 400 deployed win 7 boxes, most of which have dual video cards supporting 4 monitors. Maybe your IT team sucks, but with products out there like Operations/Configuration Manager/HP SIM, I'm down to one helpdesk guy. My infrastructure guy pushes out driver updates to all 400 boxes in seconds. Same for configuration changes. If a machine crashes for some reason I can PXE boot the machine remotely and push a fresh OS over the wire, and with all user settings stored on the server, my helpdesk guy doesn't even need to touch the machine. Whole process takes 10 minutes from beginning to end. All our boxes run SSD's and heat sink based video cards/CPU's, so they are pretty much solid state except for the PSU fan. Unless you manage 10,000+ old computers, there's something seriously wrong if you have to touch that many computer's per day.

Meanwhile, I've yet to find a competent network management product to handle our few macs. Apple support doesn't give a shit that we're a company when we call and are treated like any other consumer. Constantly deal with domain login issue's with the Mac's, of which apple has already issued three patches to try and correct. Apple's answer? Take them off the domain and use mac mini's as servers.. ROFL. You may have issues handling your PC network which is fine, but I'd be curious as to whether you think you could manage the same number of macs any easier..

You obviously don't work in a tech field then. If you're a home user who knows his/her shit, keeping one single computer up and running well is fairly straightforward. If you're in the industry, like many of us here, and you lay hands on 50-100+ different Windows machines in a given day, you will run into every one of those things regularly. Especially in corporate environments that have control standards.

Again I'm not a Windows hater. If I was going to build a gaming rig it would definitely be a Windows box. But if you're saying that Windows 7 is as stable as OSX, you're either looking at a very small sample size or completely out of your mind.
 

Cor_sl

shitlord
487
0
I was thinking of just using an MBAir or Pro as a desktop replacement with two Thunderbolt monitors at home instead of an iMac or Mini. I like the idea of taking everything with me in a heartbeat without worrying about synching, etc. Is that practical?
Get a Macbook Pro if you're going to do that. The extra cpu/gpu power will be useful for driving those monitors.

Also, get one of these --

hengedock-sg.jpg


henge-docks-macbook-pro-docking-station-5.jpg


http://www.hengedocks.com

You connect your power cables, usb, thunderbolt etc. to the dock itself and it automatically connects them to your Macbook when you put it into the dock. That way, you don't have to faff around connecting and disconnecting a bunch of cables whenever you want to use your desktop rig. It's a great piece of kit.
 

Seventh

Golden Squire
892
15
15+ year tech field worker here with approximately 400 deployed win 7 boxes, most of which have dual video cards supporting 4 monitors. Maybe your IT team sucks, but with products out there like Operations/Configuration Manager/HP SIM, I'm down to one helpdesk guy. My infrastructure guy pushes out driver updates to all 400 boxes in seconds. Same for configuration changes. If a machine crashes for some reason I can PXE boot the machine remotely and push a fresh OS over the wire, and with all user settings stored on the server, my helpdesk guy doesn't even need to touch the machine. Whole process takes 10 minutes from beginning to end. All our boxes run SSD's and heat sink based video cards/CPU's, so they are pretty much solid state except for the PSU fan. Unless you manage 10,000+ old computers, there's something seriously wrong if you have to touch that many computer's per day.
I wasn't talking OSX in a corporate environment, I was answering the OPs question as to wether it was worth going all apple at home. I'm not in IT, I'm a systems engineer for the military. My team and I deploy our systems to various desert locales, so it's not a matter of "call the helpdesk" for us, ever. If shit breaks in the field I/we have to fix it, and in my experience that happens a lot. If your environment is comprised entirely of the absolute best of the best like you say it is - first off, that's an enviable position to be in, but secondly one might question the financial justification for people like secretaries, admins and general marketing schleps needing hardware that current. I'll go out on a limb and say that your "everyone has an SSD" environment is not the norm.

Meanwhile, I've yet to find a competent network management product to handle our few macs. Apple support doesn't give a shit that we're a company when we call and are treated like any other consumer. Constantly deal with domain login issue's with the Mac's, of which apple has already issued three patches to try and correct. Apple's answer? Take them off the domain and use mac mini's as servers.. ROFL. You may have issues handling your PC network which is fine, but I'd be curious as to whether you think you could manage the same number of macs any easier..
Everything is tailored to Windows, so it makes sense that managing them is a lot easier. There's a reason my environment is mixed Windows/Linux. Price being the main point, but not far behind that is exactly what you're referring to - large scale support for OSX just isn't there. I won't disagree with that at all, especially with virtualization being about as good as it's ever been.

Again, I am NOT saying that OSX is the best for a corporate environment. I'm saying that as a guy who uses it at home I'm glad I do. I AM saying, however, that if someone tries to tell me that they 400+ Windows boxes and never have a problem, they are full of shit. I mentioned that I spent 10+ years in IT and have an MSCE to point out that I'm a pretty solid Windows guy, and despite what every anti-Apple person things, not everyone that posts something complimentary about OSX is posting it from Starbucks while sporting a neckbeard and a turtleneck sweater while listening to Radiohead.

Edit: And in response to the obligatory neg:

Izo_sl said:
Apple server, apple backbone devices, apple storage, apple business backend, apple supprt for corporations? No? Sounds like you were never an IT manager but more of front desk on the floor guy - Izo
I'm not entirely sure what you're getting at here, but the "path" to being an IT manager usually involves wearing all of the other hats beforehand. Not that it matters, but like most people in that position I started out as a desktop guy, then a network/sysadmin, then moved up to have my own staff. IMO, someone that just gets a degree and dives into any kind of tech job is not going to be as good as someone that's actually slogged their way up the chain. There's a reason they say "everything works in the lab". You can build the most to-the-letter-perfect network/system environment imaginable, and everything goes out the window the instant you add several hundred end users to it. You can't teach that kind of thing, or the kind of patience it takes to realize that sometimes you just need to do the same exact thing a few times in a row for it to "fix" the problem. That's especially true for windows. Good IT staff are hard to come by. I know plenty of people with degrees who are awful at their job, and plenty of guys who just have the knack for it who are amazing.
 

Seventh

Golden Squire
892
15
http://www.hengedocks.com

You connect your power cables, usb, thunderbolt etc. to the dock itself and it automatically connects them to your Macbook when you put it into the dock. That way, you don't have to faff around connecting and disconnecting a bunch of cables whenever you want to use your desktop rig. It's a great piece of kit.
They have some horizontal ones coming out pretty soon that look fantastic.

http://www.engadget.com/2013/01/08/h...books-loads-o/
 

Seventh

Golden Squire
892
15
I have 3 windows 7 machines in my house that run 24-7 and none of them have ever crashed that I can recall, they update themselves in the middle of the night, and I have never experienced any of the things you have mentioned. I don't have mass data of Windows 7 vs OSX but Windows 7 is extremely stable and your suggestion that windows has constant stability problems is nonsense.
Well I stand corrected then. I'm sure three-system environments will be the new benchmark for stability testing any day now.
 

Frenzied Wombat

Potato del Grande
14,730
31,802
Ok.. Your initial post summarized: "I switched to Mac because PC's are inferior, demonstrated by a large work derived sample size of PC's where I have to put my hands on them and deal with driver issues, reboots, 100% cpu issues, registry, etc. "I never have to deal with these on a Mac"

Ergo, this translates into "My Mac has none of these frustrating PC only issues found in my business environment, so logic should dictate that Mac's should supplant my PC's at work with the exception of those that cannot run Mac equivalent software.

And you are right, I am in an enviable position where I was able to prove that hard disks were the #1 failed computer component, and the cost delta on supplying SSD's to all would be easily made up by decreased help desk support as well as increased productivity via performance and lack of downtime saved due to no more drive failures.

And I never said I don't have any problems with 400+ PC's.. But what we do have is RARELY the result of the OS. Literally looking over the helpdesk log we had 2 tickets for December relating to an OS issue. That's pretty damn solid.. #1 ticket type goes to what we call "user related issue" (polite designation for stupid user) and #2 were printer stuff and #3 was shitty Adobe Reader issues. Seriously, fuck Adobe.

Your reply to the neg is correct in terms of what makes a solid IT manager

I wasn't talking OSX in a corporate environment, I was answering the OPs question as to wether it was worth going all apple at home. I'm not in IT, I'm a systems engineer for the military. My team and I deploy our systems to various desert locales, so it's not a matter of "call the helpdesk" for us, ever. If shit breaks in the field I/we have to fix it, and in my experience that happens a lot. If your environment is comprised entirely of the absolute best of the best like you say it is - first off, that's an enviable position to be in, but secondly one might question the financial justification for people like secretaries, admins and general marketing schleps needing hardware that current. I'll go out on a limb and say that your "everyone has an SSD" environment is not the norm.
 

Seventh

Golden Squire
892
15
Ergo, this translates into "My Mac has none of these frustrating PC only issues found in my business environment, so logic should dictate that Mac's should supplant my PC's at work with the exception of those that cannot run Mac equivalent software.
Those issues aren't only found in my business environment, they're just more prevalent because (obviously) there's a lot more Windows there than in my house. I've run Windows at home for a damn long time, like most of us here. My first job was installing 3.1 and NT server from floppies.

You can't honestly tell me that it never fucks up. The last round of Windows updates alone had a few dozen of my machines hanging up at the "configuring windows updates, do not restart blah blah" screen. Simple fix, just hard cycle the thing, but if you Google "configuring windows stuck" and restrict it to the last month, there are pages and pages of people having the same issue. That's just one tiny example of many of something that brings down a production environment. If your desktop guy is pushing updates from something like WSUS down to 400+ clients at once and they call come back up clean every time, do yourself a favor and give him a raise.

I can honestly tell you that having run OSX for 3 years now, it fucks up a LOT less than Windows does. I qualified that by saying that I still deal with Windows all the time at work, which is the basis for my opinion. I use both OSX and Windows daily, which is more than can be said for 99% of the "OSX sucks, Apple sucks, iPhone sucks" crowd who love to hate on Apple just because they are Apple. To the OP's question, Apple shit paired with other Apple shit tends to work extremely well with minimal headaches.

And you are right, I am in an enviable position where I was able to prove that hard disks were the #1 failed computer component, and the cost delta on supplying SSD's to all would be easily made up by decreased help desk support as well as increased productivity via performance and lack of downtime saved due to no more drive failures.
I'd honestly (no sarcasm) love to know how you pulled that off. My secretary uses a 2-3 year old Dell laptop with a 5200RPM drive in it. She checks email and schedules meetings with it, and almost everything she works on is either on the exchange server or on a sharepoint site. She doesn't need new hardware, or an SSD, and if her current machine dies I'm sure our IT dept will just recycle another old laptop to use in it's place. That's what I'm getting at.

Seriously, fuck Adobe.
No argument there, haha.
 

Tenks

Bronze Knight of the Realm
14,163
606
I use a ton of open source stuff to help me out with development that is exclusive to Windows. For that reason alone I couldn't go all Apple. My company is becoming very mixed with boxes. Pretty much all our laptops have gone from Dell to Apple. Desktops are still Dell. Personally I find it silly they develop on an Apple machine since really all they open with it is our IDE -- which is the same cross platform. They lose out on having many of the options for unix shells, XML readers/viewers, differ tools, Database utilities. It doesn't make sense to me to purposefully remove options from yourself. I think the only reason we saw such a big shift towards Apples (not just at my company, just in general) was how abysmal Vista was. Windows7 pretty much fixed every single issue from Vista. My laptop which crashed pretty much daily in Vista hasn't crashed in a while in 7.
 

Frenzied Wombat

Potato del Grande
14,730
31,802
I never said never. Like I stated we had two OS related tickets in December. What I'm saying is that if you use good hardware, effective monitoring and management tools, and be proactive-- IT problems of ANY sort can be minimized. I severely question whether OSX is any more stable than Win 7 installed on a quality platform and effectively maintained. When you get your Mac, it comes with quality hardware-- no choice. When your purchasing department decides to buy 30 PC's, they can buy 30 dogshit pc's with shared video memory, cheap motherboards, and all sorts of management software crap installed. Buy quality workstations, SSD drives, dedicated video cards-- the same shit they put in a Mac, and watch the reliability soar.. Also, not allowing your users to be admins on their own boxes goes a looong way.

Your "windows update stuck" is a perfect example. This is always caused by a corrupt file in the manifest directory or a bad sector, which either occurred because of a dying hard disk or some dumbass user hard powered his PC because he kicked out his monitor cable. You can prevent this problem by pushing out the most recentSystem Update Readiness Tool(A new one comes every few months) via SMS a few hours before your WSUS schedule kicks in, and voila-- no more stuck Windows Updates. SSD's really help against this as well, due to the fact that I haven't seen a bad sector on one yet.

Throw a few hundred macs on your network, and inevitably after some hard drives start going bad or stupid users pull the plug on them, you'll start to see something similar.

As for how I pulled off the SSD for all, first off the company I work for thankfully has money. Obviously if I worked for some cheap or marginally profitable company it wouldn't matter how persuasive I was. However, using the secretary as an example I was able to demonstrate the end users productivity (or lack thereof during a disk failure) was probably the smallest component of ROI in making the switch to an SSD. Our stats showed that over a 5 year period, there was a 30% that the drive would die during that time. Hence a 30% chance that we would have to spend $75 on a replacement platter based drive. My helpdesk guy would typically spend in total an hour replacing the physical drive, spooling the new OS over the network, and of course trying to get some file off the old drive because the idiot saved some important file on their desktop. Finally add in the end-users lost productivity, and in the case of a secretary her Boss' lost productivity, as well as the increased speed benefit of an SSD, and it didn't even take 10 minutes to convince the CFO. 400 64GB SSD's cost us $80 a piece.


You can't honestly tell me that it never fucks up. The last round of Windows updates alone had a few dozen of my machines hanging up at the "configuring windows updates, do not restart blah blah" screen. Simple fix, just hard cycle the thing, but if you Google "configuring windows stuck" and restrict it to the last month, there are pages and pages of people having the same issue. That's just one tiny example of many of something that brings down a production environment. If your desktop guy is pushing updates from something like WSUS down to 400+ clients at once and they call come back up clean every time, do yourself a favor and give him a raise.

I can honestly tell you that having run OSX for 3 years now, it fucks up a LOT less than Windows does. I qualified that by saying that I still deal with Windows all the time at work, which is the basis for my opinion. I use both OSX and Windows daily, which is more than can be said for 99% of the "OSX sucks, Apple sucks, iPhone sucks" crowd who love to hate on Apple just because they are Apple. To the OP's question, Apple shit paired with other Apple shit tends to work extremely well with minimal headaches.



I'd honestly (no sarcasm) love to know how you pulled that off. My secretary uses a 2-3 year old Dell laptop with a 5200RPM drive in it. She checks email and schedules meetings with it, and almost everything she works on is either on the exchange server or on a sharepoint site. She doesn't need new hardware, or an SSD, and if her current machine dies I'm sure our IT dept will just recycle another old laptop to use in it's place. That's what I'm getting at.



No argument there, haha.
 

kegkilla

The Big Mod
<Banned>
11,320
14,738
Those issues aren't only found in my business environment, they're just more prevalent because (obviously) there's a lot more Windows there than in my house. I've run Windows at home for a damn long time, like most of us here. My first job was installing 3.1 and NT server from floppies.

You can't honestly tell me that it never fucks up. The last round of Windows updates alone had a few dozen of my machines hanging up at the "configuring windows updates, do not restart blah blah" screen. Simple fix, just hard cycle the thing, but if you Google "configuring windows stuck" and restrict it to the last month, there are pages and pages of people having the same issue. That's just one tiny example of many of something that brings down a production environment. If your desktop guy is pushing updates from something like WSUS down to 400+ clients at once and they call come back up clean every time, do yourself a favor and give him a raise.

I can honestly tell you that having run OSX for 3 years now, it fucks up a LOT less than Windows does. I qualified that by saying that I still deal with Windows all the time at work, which is the basis for my opinion. I use both OSX and Windows daily, which is more than can be said for 99% of the "OSX sucks, Apple sucks, iPhone sucks" crowd who love to hate on Apple just because they are Apple. To the OP's question, Apple shit paired with other Apple shit tends to work extremely well with minimal headaches.



I'd honestly (no sarcasm) love to know how you pulled that off. My secretary uses a 2-3 year old Dell laptop with a 5200RPM drive in it. She checks email and schedules meetings with it, and almost everything she works on is either on the exchange server or on a sharepoint site. She doesn't need new hardware, or an SSD, and if her current machine dies I'm sure our IT dept will just recycle another old laptop to use in it's place. That's what I'm getting at.



No argument there, haha.
please post a pic of your femboy self so we can all have a good laugh.
 

Chancellor Alkorin

Part-Time Sith
<Granularity Engineer>
6,029
5,915
On a somewhat related note, the lightning to 30 pin connector doesn't allow you to control the iPhone as an audio source. What the fuck?

Edit: Never mind. It's because the lightning connector is chipped and the old devices (like my clock radio) aren't capable of authenticating to the phone, so they aren't allowed to use it as a music device. Thanks a lot, Apple. Wow.