2 years later... the almost sad state of MMOs in the new era

Kharzette

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Next gen mmos need next gen mounts:

 

Daidraco

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Huh? Ponytail is making VR headset cleaning systems..
I believe he may have been confused on the names. Dave Georgeson is rarely called by his name. Where as Rob Pardo, Jeff Kaplan, etc. are called... just that. Not to mention Brad has such an illustrious reputation here that by calling him even by his life style choices, hes well known.
 

ShakyJake

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I couldn't find an appropriate thread, as there doesn't appear to be a "Hey, I Got an Idea For a Game" thread.

Having recently begun playing WoW Classic I realized I actually quite miss the Dungeon Finder feature. Yeah, I know, it destroys community, yada, yada...BUT as a casual player, which I accept that I am now, LFD is actually really, really nice. I begun playing BFA a tad too, but all I'm interested in doing is queuing for dungeons. I have zero interest in running around doing the world quests.

So it made me wonder: how about a relatively simple, online free-to-play game that was essentially just a Dungeon Finder? Maybe something like this exists and I'm not aware? But the idea I have is some kind of dungeon runner/explorer, where a small team of players (or support solo play too) can explore for loot and xp. Obviously class structure would have to be tweaked to not rely so heavily on a tank+healer as DPS classes would have an enormously long wait in a queue.

I guess one could say Diablo is sort of this. Randomized dungeons, randomized loot...but I'm thinking something closer to a traditional fantasy, AD&D type of gameplay with the full, 3D, third-person perspective of WoW.

Thoughts?
 
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Teekey

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So it made me wonder: how about a relatively simple, online free-to-play game that was essentially just a Dungeon Finder? Maybe something like this exists and I'm not aware? But the idea I have is some kind of dungeon runner/explorer, where a small team of players (or support solo play too) can explore for loot and xp. Obviously class structure would have to be tweaked to not rely so heavily on a tank+healer as DPS classes would have an enormously long wait in a queue.
Wasn't that essentially what Dungeons and Dragons Online was?

...Which, looking at their website, is shockingly is still a thing?...The art is hilarious though. Their faces 😂


1573104931740.png
 
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Jorren

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and games like it are pretty much what you are describing. Destiny, Division, etc are somewhat based on what you are describing.
 

nevergone

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I couldn't find an appropriate thread, as there doesn't appear to be a "Hey, I Got an Idea For a Game" thread.

Having recently begun playing WoW Classic I realized I actually quite miss the Dungeon Finder feature. Yeah, I know, it destroys community, yada, yada...BUT as a casual player, which I accept that I am now, LFD is actually really, really nice. I begun playing BFA a tad too, but all I'm interested in doing is queuing for dungeons. I have zero interest in running around doing the world quests.

So it made me wonder: how about a relatively simple, online free-to-play game that was essentially just a Dungeon Finder? Maybe something like this exists and I'm not aware? But the idea I have is some kind of dungeon runner/explorer, where a small team of players (or support solo play too) can explore for loot and xp. Obviously class structure would have to be tweaked to not rely so heavily on a tank+healer as DPS classes would have an enormously long wait in a queue.

I guess one could say Diablo is sort of this. Randomized dungeons, randomized loot...but I'm thinking something closer to a traditional fantasy, AD&D type of gameplay with the full, 3D, third-person perspective of WoW.

Thoughts?
I think there needs to be a balance of overland content with dungeon delving. Enough to feel as though you have options to come off the rails and strike into the wild as you explore the world and complete tasks on your own. Crafting and tradeskills can co-exist in that ecosystem as well, but I know in a straight up dungeon running experience, collecting crafting components can often feel distracting when the rest of the party is moving at a different pace and with different objectives.

I say this with some reluctance and with the expectation that I could be dog piled and salted for wrong-think, but modern WoW has a great blend of playable options with different accessibility levels catering to players with different levels of commitment. Unfortunately, as time has progressed, the systems that exist within the game are layered on top of an aging engine, art assets, and a combat system that simply can't be described as modern anymore.

Characters are effectively turrets that dispense damage or healing and spending time moving typically lowers your output so do that as little as possible as select whatever marginal options you have to mitigate the impact of movement. The DDR and scripted approach to boss and raid encounters needs to be moved forward and implemented differently in future iterations, and a level of player derived complexity (bring back support and crowd control classes/characters) needs to be reintroduced to the genre.

When I read that nothing jumped out at the dev team as a class idea with Shadowlands, it was a definite face palm moment. The obvious option is some kind of soulbinder or necromancer/curse slinger. Something that resurrects the idea of a chance crowd control centric class, in line with difficulty and levels being crunched, suddenly the tank + damage + healer + support/cc comes back as the standard.
 
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Flobee

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So I fully support CC classes being reintroduced to games. However the burning question is how do you bring them in without making them either a requirement ala EQ, or largely meaningless ala Classic WoW. I imagine there is a method to do this and I would be curious to hear some of your ideas. It seems hard to get the meaningfulness of contribution that you feel from a holy trinity class balance style without pigeonholing groups into only starting when they find the right classes.

Right now the only idea I can think of is giving every/many classes CC options and balancing combat to require its use. Wildstar did this though and knuckle-dragging PUG players couldn't hang. I didn't play much Wildstar though so perhaps there were other limiting factors.
 

Pharone

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So I fully support CC classes being reintroduced to games. However the burning question is how do you bring them in without making them either a requirement ala EQ, or largely meaningless ala Classic WoW. I imagine there is a method to do this and I would be curious to hear some of your ideas. It seems hard to get the meaningfulness of contribution that you feel from a holy trinity class balance style without pigeonholing groups into only starting when they find the right classes.

Right now the only idea I can think of is giving every/many classes CC options and balancing combat to require its use. Wildstar did this though and knuckle-dragging PUG players couldn't hang. I didn't play much Wildstar though so perhaps there were other limiting factors.
Buffing, Crowd Control, and Pulling have always been fringe things that were vastly needed to keep RPGs great, but at the same time required having the right group make up before you could start playing for the session. Tanks, healers, and DPS are a no brainer. Every MMORPG has them in great quantity.

I agree with you that these roles need to be consumed by the three main class archetypes (tank, healer, dps).

That being said, I would prefer that the way they go about performing these added roles should depend greatly upon the base class that is doing it.

For instance, a tank that has bard qualities would have the ability to calm, mez, and supply buffs/debuffs via songs along with their typical tanking role.

A tank that has some shaman qualities would handle pulling with roots, CC with slows and roots, and buffs via spells.
 
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nevergone

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So I fully support CC classes being reintroduced to games. However the burning question is how do you bring them in without making them either a requirement ala EQ, or largely meaningless ala Classic WoW. I imagine there is a method to do this and I would be curious to hear some of your ideas. It seems hard to get the meaningfulness of contribution that you feel from a holy trinity class balance style without pigeonholing groups into only starting when they find the right classes.

Right now the only idea I can think of is giving every/many classes CC options and balancing combat to require its use. Wildstar did this though and knuckle-dragging PUG players couldn't hang. I didn't play much Wildstar though so perhaps there were other limiting factors.
I'm in favor of consolidating support skills, including crowd control, massive buffs and debuffs, and other balance shifting mechanics into the support/CC classes and builds.
WoW dispersed those abilities across all classes, with some having one or two more than others but not to the extent where you could call any class a CC/support class.

A better model, with more modern implementation would be what we had in City of Heroes. Dedicated support and control classes ALA controllers and defenders.
 
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mkopec

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Problem with class system that has more focused roles like tanking and healing, control, etc... Is that there will always be 100000 DPS and handful of skilled healers, tanks, controllers. So group finding is always shitty. Why? because its always easy to DPS vs a specific role that makes or breaks your group such as tanking, contol or healing. This is why blizzard did what it did to its class structure by diversifying more of the skills among classes later in its life.

And this was quite apparent even in the latest Classic WOW showing with the lack of tanks. Even though warrior was like one of the most played classes too, no one ever wanted to tank dungeons, only a few brave souls took on that task.

Not sure what the answer is here either. But its def a problem in either iteration.
 

nevergone

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Problem with class system that has more focused roles like tanking and healing, control, etc... Is that there will always be 100000 DPS and handful of skilled healers, tanks, controllers. So group finding is always shitty. Why? because its always easy to DPS vs a specific role that makes or breaks your group such as tanking, contol or healing. This is why blizzard did what it did to its class structure by diversifying more of the skills among classes later in its life.

And this was quite apparent even in the latest Classic WOW showing with the lack of tanks. Even though warrior was like one of the most played classes too, no one ever wanted to tank dungeons, only a few brave souls took on that task.

Not sure what the answer is here either. But its def a problem in either iteration.
Skill builds that can be changed on the fly out of combat.
As a very basic example, take mages in WoW.

If you're using your fire spec, you're full bore DPS.
If you're using ice, you're hybrid DPS with slows/debuffs.
If you're using arcane, you're more focused on CC and buffs through time manipulation and illusions.
 

TJT

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Problem with class system that has more focused roles like tanking and healing, control, etc... Is that there will always be 100000 DPS and handful of skilled healers, tanks, controllers. So group finding is always shitty. Why? because its always easy to DPS vs a specific role that makes or breaks your group such as tanking, contol or healing. This is why blizzard did what it did to its class structure by diversifying more of the skills among classes later in its life.

And this was quite apparent even in the latest Classic WOW showing with the lack of tanks. Even though warrior was like one of the most played classes too, no one ever wanted to tank dungeons, only a few brave souls took on that task.

Not sure what the answer is here either. But its def a problem in either iteration.
Yeah but class homogenization of skills just leads to classes being more and more meaningless.

In terms of design its all a double edged sword but I do feel that difficulty in MMOs should be around the group. You need to depend on other classes to survive. Raids need to be structurally difficult (keying up three dozen people and getting everyone on the same page) rather than dance dance revolution difficult. You need to be able bring along dumbass Timmy and Martha the housewife.

Professions should matter and people who dedicate lots of time to them should be able to make cool and useful shit.

Those kind of foundational rules are what make MMORPGs what they are. As opposed to devolving into activity centers like retail WOW in 2019.

It does present a bad argument because the overall dogmatic rule of game design is to seemingly remove all frustrating elements of gameplay. But in MMORPG you absolutely need pain points and frustration and complexity. All so you can turn to other players and sources to alleviate them and push forward.
 
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Daidraco

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Right now the only idea I can think of is giving every/many classes CC options and balancing combat to require its use. Wildstar did this though and knuckle-dragging PUG players couldn't hang. I didn't play much Wildstar though so perhaps there were other limiting factors.
Wildstar did fuck all to prepare the player at max level. The difficulty spike encountered at max level was massive and the game only dropped hints along the way of what was to be expected. It was like dropping a fresh WoW player into Mythic +10-15 and expecting them to do well. If you didnt have a static group, it was god awful training every new person how to run storm talon's lair etc.
In Essence - Wildstar poorly transitioned into its end-game content at release. It was the games fault that the play style in question failed, not the play style itself.

Yeah but class homogenization of skills just leads to classes being more and more meaningless.

In terms of design its all a double edged sword but I do feel that difficulty in MMOs should be around the group. You need to depend on other classes to survive. Raids need to be structurally difficult (keying up three dozen people and getting everyone on the same page) rather than dance dance revolution difficult. You need to be able bring along dumbass Timmy and Martha the housewife.

Professions should matter and people who dedicate lots of time to them should be able to make cool and useful shit.

Those kind of foundational rules are what make MMORPGs what they are. As opposed to devolving into activity centers like retail WOW in 2019.

It does present a bad argument because the overall dogmatic rule of game design is to seemingly remove all frustrating elements of gameplay. But in MMORPG you absolutely need pain points and frustration and complexity. All so you can turn to other players and sources to alleviate them and push forward.
That old Matrix quote about the world had to have imperfection in it for it to be acceptable is true in just about anything. Homogenization is boring. No one brings anything new to the table. Games that arent holding onto the "Bring the Player, not the Class" seem to be doing better in regards to their classes feeling unique, special and powerful. Where as .. outside of the look, Im not sure what the difference is between some classes in WoW that are fulfilling the same role.

In WOTLK, I joined this group of people and raided with them all the time. We were sooooo f'n casual.. :trump: But I ended up leading them through every raid in that expansion, far before the next raid tier came out. Honestly, I had more fun with them than I ever did with any try hard guild in WoW. We had a couple wives, a few 9-13 year old kids of guild members playing and rarely did anyone bitch about anything. Reminded me a lot of the times I had in EverQuest that I would have farming Fire Giants, or farming Hate/Fear/Sky. I want to say "if we could just bring as many players as we want, I think we would all have a better time". But I feel like in the back of my head that Try Hards just dont mix with casuals that well unless they are openly trying to hang with them like I was doing.

This too is the face I made when I played DnDO
I just figured they were modeled after actual players from a Comicon or something lol.