A Song of Ice and Fire (Released Spoilers)

Dandai

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I've been rereading (well, listening to the audio books while I do other stuff), and I know R+L=J is the worst kept secret in the series, but I was thinking about how melancholy Rhaegar was because he was convinced that he was destined to be something he didn't want to be - the Prince who [that?] was Promised. I think, with Jon's death (and imminent resurrection) and Melisandre's vision of "Snow," GRRM might be subtly confirming Jon's parentage asJonis very likely the Prince who was Promised, something the Targaryens seem to think would come from their lineage. It also occurred to me that it's possible that Rhaegar didn't think that HE was the Prince, but knew that he was going to be the father of the Prince and would ultimately die (or be sacrificed) because of it.

If Jon is AA reborn, he's going to have to sacrifice his beloved to create Lightbringer. With Ygritte out of the picture I guess it's gg Ghost?

Obviously this is purely speculation, but I'm picking up on some more subtle language use this time around, how Ser Barristan describes Rhaegar and how Maester Aemon questions Sam about Stannis' Lightbringer and the prophecy of the Prince (as told by Aemon).
 

Grimmlokk

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Renly cosplay done right.

ZZVtIvC.jpg
 

Ashin

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I've been rereading (well, listening to the audio books while I do other stuff), and I know R+L=J is the worst kept secret in the series, but I was thinking about how melancholy Rhaegar was because he was convinced that he was destined to be something he didn't want to be - the Prince who [that?] was Promised. I think, with Jon's death (and imminent resurrection) and Melisandre's vision of "Snow," GRRM might be subtly confirming Jon's parentage asJonis very likely the Prince who was Promised, something the Targaryens seem to think would come from their lineage. It also occurred to me that it's possible that Rhaegar didn't think that HE was the Prince, but knew that he was going to be the father of the Prince and would ultimately die (or be sacrificed) because of it.

If Jon is AA reborn, he's going to have to sacrifice his beloved to create Lightbringer. With Ygritte out of the picture I guess it's gg Ghost?

Obviously this is purely speculation, but I'm picking up on some more subtle language use this time around, how Ser Barristan describes Rhaegar and how Maester Aemon questions Sam about Stannis' Lightbringer and the prophecy of the Prince (as told by Aemon).
Nah he believed that Aegon was the Prince that was Promised - Daenarys had a vision in the House of the Undying of Rhaegar with Elia and Aegon, with Rhaegar saying (paraphrasing here) "He is the Prince that was promised, his will be the song of ice and fire".
 

Noodleface

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If there is even any remote chance that Jon would have to sacrifice Ghost, you know GRRM will do it to kick us in the balls.
 

bixxby

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Maybe he will have to kill Arya. I'd put Arya being in a situation where he has to kill her over his pet dog.
 

StoiCynic

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Nah he believed that Aegon was the Prince that was Promised - Daenarys had a vision in the House of the Undying of Rhaegar with Elia and Aegon, with Rhaegar saying (paraphrasing here) "He is the Prince that was promised, his will be the song of ice and fire".
To he fair he did originally believe himself to be the Prince that was Promised. That is what motivated him to turn from a bookwormy emo bard to a badass swordsman. It wasn't until a ritual that went horribly wrong at summerhall that he realised it would be his son.

Rhaegars story has always intriqued me. I hope it gets more fleshed out in the next book(s).
 

chaos

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Yeah

AWOIAF_sl said:
Whitebeard explains that the Prince was always melancholy, and a sense of doom hung over him. "He was born in grief, and that shadow hung over him all his days." Daenerys knows that it was the shadow of Summerhall that Arstan was referring to.
 

Dandai

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Lately, I've been doing a lot of menial tasks that allow me to listen to audio books while I work. I decided to re-listen to Books 3-5 to refresh my memory for the show and because I'd only read 4 and 5 once, immediately after they were respectively released.

I remember feeling pretty disappointed with them when I finished the first time, but as I'm wrapping up ADwD I'm finding much more appreciation for the subtleties and nuances that I more or less glossed over in my first read through. For example, I completely missed that final few paragraphs in Feast revealing one of Sam's new friends at the citadel as a (presumably) faceless man wearing Pate's identity. I also didn't recognize how spoilery the numerous prophecies/visions are. Almost all of them are basically spoiling the key moments of the book once you have some inkling of understanding as to what they concern.

Anyway, if you're like me and didn't reread 4 and 5 because you had expectations that weren't met, try them again and see how they read the second time through.
 

Grimmlokk

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I remember feeling pretty disappointed with them when I finished the first time, but as I'm wrapping up ADwD I'm finding much more appreciation for the subtleties and nuances that I more or less glossed over in my first read through.
..
Anyway, if you're like me and didn't reread 4 and 5 because you had expectations that weren't met, try them again and see how they read the second time through.
I made almost this exact GD post back on FoH in regards to AFFC. We have such insanely high expectations coming in to these books that it's almost impossible for them to really live up to them.

I was, like almost everyone, disappointed in AFFC when it came out. A year or two later I did a re-read of the series and was absolutely stunned to discover that I actually enjoyed the fuck out of AFFC. Like, alot.There's really something to be said for coming in with no preconceptions and just enjoying a great God damned writer telling you a great God damned story.

It really has me looking forward to re-reading the series before book 6 hits, because I know for sure I will enjoy ADwD a hell of a lot more on re-reading.
 

Tuco

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Lately, I've been doing a lot of menial tasks that allow me to listen to audio books while I work. I decided to re-listen to Books 3-5 to refresh my memory for the show and because I'd only read 4 and 5 once, immediately after they were respectively released.

I remember feeling pretty disappointed with them when I finished the first time, but as I'm wrapping up ADwD I'm finding much more appreciation for the subtleties and nuances that I more or less glossed over in my first read through. For example, I completely missed that final few paragraphs in Feast revealing one of Sam's new friends at the citadel as a (presumably) faceless man wearing Pate's identity. I also didn't recognize how spoilery the numerous prophecies/visions are. Almost all of them are basically spoiling the key moments of the book once you have some inkling of understanding as to what they concern.
This kind of makes me wish that these types of books were published as episodes or chapters. I know if I'm really excited about a book I'll read it too fast to appreciate it properly since I mostly want to find out what happens rather than enjoy it. All the nuanced prediction foreshadowing is lost since instead of pondering it and discussing it with a community I can just read for a few more hours.


To answer the TV question, yes it's very possible that GoT wraps up before ASOIAF. And I have no problem with that.
 

Feanor

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I haven't read AFFC yet. Took a break after the first three.

The House of the Undying chapter in ACoK was badass. The tv version was pretty darn great, but the book version. Wow. Utterly mysterious and vivid. The structure of prophecies and subtle reveals in ASoS as well. Setting up the Rains of Castemere well before the red wedding, Patchface, the little old lady at High Heart on the hill, all neatly executed. The guy does know how to write.

I'm sure George would like to finish before the show wraps up, but I also reckon he wouldn't want to rush just for the sake of rushing. Although, with just a fewer buffalo wings.
 

Dandai

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I'm not sure that I'll want to continue to watch the show if they catch up to George and continue after ADwD. The writers of the show seem fine with striking their own path with some characters, but I'm not sure that I would enjoy the novels as much knowing the major plot points ahead of time.
 

Dandai

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Looks like there's going to be a book about the Targaryen civil wars, "Dangerous Women."

Excerpthere. Spoiler contains the text:

THE PRINCESS AND THE QUEEN,
OR,
THE BLACKS AND THE GREENS

Being A History of the Causes, Origins, Battles, and Betrayals
of that Most Tragic Bloodletting Known as the Dance of the Dragons,
as set down by Archmaester Gyldayn of the Citadel of Oldtown

((here transcribed by GEORGE R.R. MARTIN))



The Dance of the Dragons is the flowery name bestowed upon the savage internecine struggle for the Iron Throne of Westeros fought between two rival branches of House Targaryen during the years 129 to 131 AC. To characterize the dark, turbulent, bloody doings of this period as a "dance" strikes us as grotesquely inappropriate. No doubt the phrase originated with some singer. "The Dying of the Dragons" would be altogether more fitting, but tradition and time have burned the more poetic usage into the pages of history, so we must dance along with the rest.

There were two principal claimants to the Iron Throne upon the death of King Viserys I Targaryen: his daughter Rhaenyra, the only surviving child of his first marriage, and Aegon, his eldest son by his second wife. Amidst the chaos and carnage brought on by their rivalry, other would-be kings would stake claims as well, strutting about like mummers on a stage for a fortnight or a moon's turn, only to fall as swiftly as they had arisen.

The Dance split the Seven Kingdoms in two, as lords, knights, and smallfolk declared for one side or the other and took up arms against each other. Even House Targaryen itself became divided, when the kith, kin, and children of each of the claimants became embroiled in the fighting. Over the two years of struggle, a terrible toll was taken of the great lords of Westeros, together with their bannermen, knights, and smallfolk. Whilst the dynasty survived, the end of the fighting saw Targaryen power much diminished, and the world's last dragons vastly reduced in number.

The Dance was a war unlike any other ever fought in the long history of the Seven Kingdoms. Though armies marched and met in savage battle, much of the slaughter took place on water, and... especially... in the air, as dragon fought dragon with tooth and claw and flame. It was a war marked by stealth, murder, and betrayal as well, a war fought in shadows and stairwells, council chambers and castle yards with knives and lies and poison.

Long simmering, the conflict burst into the open on the third day of third moon of 129 AC, when the ailing, bedridden King Viserys I Targaryen closed his eyes for a nap in the Red Keep of King's Landing, and died without waking. His body was discovered by a serving man at the hour of the bat, when it was the king's custom to take a cup of hippocras. The servant ran to inform Queen Alicent, whose apartments were on the floor below the king's.

The manservant delivered his dire tidings directly to the queen, and her alone, without raising a general alarum; the king's death had been anticipated for some time, and Queen Alicent and her party, the so-called greens,* had taken care to instruct all of Viserys's guards and servants in what to do when the day came.

*In 111 AC, a great tourney was held at King's Landing on the fifth anniversary of the king's marriage to Queen Alicent. At the opening feast, the queen wore a green gown, whilst the princess dressed dramatically in Targaryen red and black. Note was taken, and thereafter it became the custom to refer to "greens" and "blacks" when talking of the queen's party and the party of the princess, respectively. In the tourney itself, the blacks had much the better of it when Ser Criston Cole, wearing Princess Rhaenyra's favor, unhorsed all of the queen's champions, including two of her cousins and her youngest brother, Ser Gwayne Hightower.

Queen Alicent went at once to the king's bedchamber, accompanied by Ser Criston Cole, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. Once they had confirmed that Viserys was dead, Her Grace ordered his room sealed and placed under guard. The serving man who had found the king's body was taken into custody, to make certain he did not spread the tale. Ser Criston returned to White Sword Tower and sent his brothers of the Kingsguard to summon the members of the king's small council. It was the hour of the owl.

Then as now, the Sworn Brotherhood of the Kingsguard consisted of seven knights, men of proven loyalty and undoubted prowess who had taken solemn oaths to devote their lives to defending the king's person and kin. Only five of the white cloaks were in King's Landing at the time of Viserys's death; Ser Criston himself, Ser Arryk Cargyll, Ser Rickard Thorne, Ser Steffon Darklyn, and Ser Willis Fell. Ser Erryk Cargyll (twin to Ser Arryk) and Ser Lorent Marbrand, with Princess Rhaenyra on Dragonstone, remained unaware and uninvolved as their brothers-in-arms went forth into the night to rouse the members of the small council from their beds.

Gathering in the queen's chambers as the body of her lord husband grew cold above were Queen Alicent herself; her father Ser Otto Hightower, Hand of the King; Ser Criston Cole, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard; Grand Maester Orwyle; Lord Lyman Beesbury, master of coin, a man of eighty; Ser Tyland Lannister, master of ships, brother to the Lord of Casterly Rock; Larys Strong, called Larys Clubfoot, Lord of Harrenhal, master of whisperers; and Lord Jasper Wylde, called Ironrod, master of laws.

Grand Maester Orwyle opened the meeting by reviewing the customary tasks and procedures required at the death of a king. He said, "Septon Eustace should be summoned to perform the last rites and pray for the king's soul. A raven must needs be sent to Dragonstone at once to inform Princess Rhaenyra of her father's passing. Mayhaps Her Grace the queen would care to write the message, so as to soften these sad tidings with some words of condolence? The bells are always rung to announce the death of a king, someone should see to that, and of course we must begin to make our preparations for Queen Rhaenyra's coronation-"

Ser Otto Hightower cut him off. "All this must needs wait," he declared, "until the question of succession is settled." As the King's Hand, he was empowered to speak with the king's voice, even to sit the Iron Throne in the king's absence. Viserys had granted him the authority to rule over the Seven Kingdoms, and "until such time as our new king is crowned," that rule would continue.

"Until our new queen is crowned," Lord Beesbury said, in a waspish tone.

"King," insisted Queen Alicent. "The Iron Throne by rights must pass to His Grace's eldest trueborn son."

The discussion that followed lasted nigh unto dawn. Lord Beesbury spoke on behalf of Princess Rhaenyra. The ancient master of coin, who had served King Viserys for his entire reign, and his father Jaehaerys the Old King before him, reminded the council that Rhaenyra was older than her brothers and had more Targaryen blood, that the late king had chosen her as his successor, that he had repeatedly refused to alter the succession despite the pleadings of Queen Alicent and her greens, that hundreds of lords and landed knights had done obesience to the princess in 105 AC, and sworn solemn oaths to defend her rights.

But these words fell on ears made of stone.

Not A Blog_sl said:
(The full 80,000 word account of the Dance will eventually appear in a book, as yet untitled, that we're calling the GRRMarillion).
 

Grimmlokk

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Looks like there's going to be a book about the Targaryen civil wars, "Dangerous Women."
It's an anthology of fantasy short stories based around female characters, not a book about the Targ wars. GRRM is editing and contributing 1 story. Joe Abercrombie also has a Red Country related story, and there's a Jim Butcher Dresden Files one. Sanderson has something in there too. Really a lot of interesting stuff. Comes out December 3rd.
 

Lenas

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I'm not sure that I'll want to continue to watch the show if they catch up to George and continue after ADwD. The writers of the show seem fine with striking their own path with some characters, but I'm not sure that I would enjoy the novels as much knowing the major plot points ahead of time.
My exact feelings. May need to stop watching the show.
 

Dandai

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It's an anthology of fantasy short stories based around female characters, not a book about the Targ wars. GRRM is editing and contributing 1 story. Joe Abercrombie also has a Red Country related story, and there's a Jim Butcher Dresden Files one. Sanderson has something in there too. Really a lot of interesting stuff. Comes out December 3rd.
O.