Abortion

Dashel

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Curious, how many actually poor people do you know? Like crackhouse squatting poor?
Brother and sister in laws adopted 3 kids. 2 are brothers and the mom was addicted to crack, or heroin I forget, and lived in Camden NJ which I'm fairly certain ranks high on the poverty scale nationally. Certainly in NJ. But the question is, should those kids have been aborted? If you're leaving humanity out of it then yes is the easy answer but that's a cop out.

Has anyone said they support abortion in any circumstance? No restrictions at all?
 

Cutlery

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My point with the link was just to show that the fact that people sue regularly for job discrimination related cases is a real thing, not that specifically they are suing for a particular type of discrimination.

Of course discrimination happens, the point is that its illegal, that people doing it are setting themselves up for lawsuits, and that a woman not having a kid for fear of discrimination should be something society is generally opposed to. When I read "A woman with a kid can't get hired" as if its, not okay, but just a thing we have to accept is going to happen, I view it similarly to someone saying "A black person can't get hired" in the same type of context. It may happen, but its not acceptable and people shouldn't live their lives in fear that someone may discriminate against them one day because they made a decision that person didn't agree with, or have a color skin that hiring person doesn't like, what have you.
No, that wasn't your point. You said...

This is both illegal in the US, and I have never experienced this what so ever, nor my wife,
You then claim that "of course it happens" which is what Quineloe's point was. You disagreed with him to agree with me agreeing with him?

His point is that women AREN'T treated fairly in the workplace, because of the fact that they are traditional caregivers, and because they have to bear the burden of childbirth. That's not up for debate, it's a fact. Yes, it's illegal, but that doesn't stop it from happening because it's impossible for anyone off the street to prove that a company is doing it.

No one's saying it's okay, but no one here is gonna pretend it doesn't happen either.
 

Bellicose_sl

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problem ?

rrr_img_4465.jpg
 

Sulrn

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As for the crackhouse argument, the fact that there certainly are pro-choice people who have never been born doesn't make the "I'm glad I'm alive but I'm aborting my pregnancy because my parents weren't ready and I want my children to have good lives" any less specious.

I'm not going to go out and guilt-trip pregnant women, but let's be rational here. The quality of life of children to unready mothers isn't as high as what we want for all children but it's no justification to kill them.
Can you expound on this please. I'm finding it hard to believe that you're taking a contrary (and valid) OPINION and saying that it's specious (which by definition is a TRUE/FALSE scenario).
 

Tuco

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Can you expound on this please. I'm finding it hard to believe that you're taking a contrary (and valid) OPINION and saying that it's specious (which by definition is a TRUE/FALSE scenario).
Let me state the two arguments there more succinctly:

1. Very few children in the US who were aborted because the mother wasn't ready to have kids would have had such miserable lives that they wish they were never born.

2. If you agree with 1, then the "I'm not ready to have kids, so I'm saving my kid from a bad life by terminating this pregnancy" is misleadingly attractive.
 

hodj

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No, that wasn't your point. You said...
No offense bro but I think you've misunderstood what I meant when I said "My point with the link...". My point with the link was exactly as stated: To show Quineloe that his assertion that lawsuits related to discrimination in hiring were anecdotal were not so. That's it.

It had little to no bearing on the rest of what I said in my prior posts except in so far as it was related to the overall conversation generally.

Now, I do not feel I've been inconsistent, merely unclear, so allow me the moment to clarify my larger point, if you would be so kind:

Discrimination in hiring women with children is generally a rare occurance, however, the fact that it does at times exist should not necessarily deter or influence a woman's decision whether to get pregnant, have a child, or abort a child. I was not attempting to deny that it ever happens, though I can see how my statement was perceived to be that, and that was my error in communication, however, I was trying to convey that a woman shouldn't let it affect her because it is illegal, and relatively uncommon in view of other forms of discrimination against women/minorities in general.

I do not necessarily agree with Lithose's statement (which I didn't see his post earlier or I would have addressed it at that time) that the comparison between discrimination in hiring females who are pregnant or have a child and discrimination against other minorities (in the example I used I referenced discrimination against blacks because it is so prevalent in our culture but I probably should have just said generally any other minority group) is apples and oranges. Pay disparity between women with children and women without, and woman and men is quantifiable, I would assert that discrimination in hiring women with children would be quantifiable as well, were someone to have the desire/need to peruse a company's hiring practices and determine how many mothers had been hired versus non mothers and men with/without children.

Hope that clears it up.
 

Fyro

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Let me state the two arguments there more succinctly:

1. Very few children in the US who were aborted because the mother wasn't ready to have kids would have had such miserable lives that they wish they were never born.

2. If you agree with 1, then the "I'm not ready to have kids, so I'm saving my kid from a bad life by terminating this pregnancy" is misleadingly attractive.
I disagree with this. The reason being is an abortion is not killing a human being, it is aborting what would become a human being.

I think the problem here is your wording Tuco, you literally said, "Very few children.... were aborted." That is inaccurate and we all know it. Abortions do not kill the wee baby children and it is idiotic stances like yours that turn this entire issue into whether we are murdering babies or not.

Abortions ABORT what process WOULD become a child. That is not saying that abortions abort children.
 

GuardianX

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I disagree with this. The reason being is an abortion is not killing a human being, it is aborting what would become a human being.

I think the problem here is your wording Tuco, you literally said, "Very few children.... were aborted." That is inaccurate and we all know it. Abortions do not kill the wee baby children and it is idiotic stances like yours that turn this entire issue into whether we are murdering babies or not.

Abortions ABORT what process WOULD become a child. That is not saying that abortions abort children.
Two things...

1. I don't believe it is in our rights to stop people from seeking out abortions and thus, if I ever saw the topic on a ballot, I would vote for the right to choose over the right of life.

2. I think abortions are morally wrong, but see #1.

That being said, in my vision it is really telling the lengths that people will go through to deny they are killing their unborn child.

"It isn't a real child!"

"It wouldn't live outside the womb anyhow!"

If people honestly don't care about the process, why are they seeking reasoning that justifies their actions? The fact that I hear the most reasoning from the "Right to Choose" side leads me to believe there are things that are hidden costs that happen that they refuse to acknowledge.

-----

We will all argue til we are blue in the face. People will yell at each other in order to "Open each others minds" to their "idiocy", "sexism" or whatever else names are thrown around and in the end, no one will change.

Why?

Because this topic is a minefield of emotional and scientific landmines.

Keep that in mind as these political topics unfold...

You may have a perfect topic and a perfect point but you may NEVER pull anyone to your cause.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
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I disagree with this. The reason being is an abortion is not killing a human being, it is aborting what would become a human being.

I think the problem here is your wording Tuco, you literally said, "Very few children.... were aborted." That is inaccurate and we all know it. Abortions do not kill the wee baby children and it is idiotic stances like yours that turn this entire issue into whether we are murdering babies or not.

Abortions ABORT what process WOULD become a child. That is not saying that abortions abort children.
Ok, let me rephrase it to not offend you:
1. Very few abortions in the US were terminated because the mother wasn't ready to have kids would have otherwise ended up with children who would have had such miserable lives that they wish they were never born.

2. If you agree with 1, then the "I'm not ready to have kids, so I'm saving my kid from a bad life by terminating this pregnancy" is misleadingly attractive.

If you find #1 to be unreadable because of the 'process would become a child' obfuscation then I hope you're happy.
 
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Two things...

1. I don't believe it is in our rights to stop people from seeking out abortions and thus, if I ever saw the topic on a ballot, I would vote for the right to choose over the right of life.

2. I think abortions are morally wrong, but see #1.

That being said, in my vision it is really telling the lengths that people will go through to deny they are killing their unborn child.

"It isn't a real child!"

"It wouldn't live outside the womb anyhow!"

If people honestly don't care about the process, why are they seeking reasoning that justifies their actions? The fact that I hear the most reasoning from the "Right to Choose" side leads me to believe there are things that are hidden costs that happen that they refuse to acknowledge.

-----

We will all argue til we are blue in the face. People will yell at each other in order to "Open each others minds" to their "idiocy", "sexism" or whatever else names are thrown around and in the end, no one will change.

Why?

Because this topic is a minefield of emotional and scientific landmines.

Keep that in mind as these political topics unfold...

You may have a perfect topic and a perfect point but you may NEVER pull anyone to your cause.
An abortion isn't killing the child in the same way as me not donating my kidney to someone who is in kidney failure is not me killing that person. Every living being has a right to live, but not when that being's survival is contingent on subsisting off of another living being. Once the baby is viable, then aborting it would be murder. Until then, no.

I don't want to nitpick but people seriously need to stop talking about an abortion as "killing" a baby. Not only is it untrue, that kind of rhetoric does nothing to further a rational conversation.
 

GuardianX

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Every living being has a right to live, but not when that being's survival is contingent on subsisting off of another living being.Once the baby is viable, then aborting it would be murder. Until then, no.

I don't want to nitpick but people seriously need to stop talking about an abortion as "killing" a baby. Not only is it untrue, that kind of rhetoric does nothing to further a rational conversation.
I don't want to "nitpick" but how many newborns have you seen NOT subsisting off another living being?

This is an extension of your own logic so..

I would argue that a child is not viable until about 4-8 years old at the least. I would argue that there are some ADULTS (non-mentally handicapped) that aren't capable of meeting your criteria.

Now if you simply mean that subsisting is being defined here as, "able to live for a period of time without intervention or assistance from another entity." Maybe I understand your logic if this is the case, because I'm sure that a newborn could exist for maybe a few days before it would require another being to care for it. If you are using the classical definition of "subsisting" then I would argue my previous points made.

Okay, so far I have heard as criteria for acceptable cases of abortion:

"If the things subsistence is contingent on another being."
"It isn't a real human being."
"It would inconvenience my life so, I don't care about the morality, get out the shop vac."
"As long as there is no brain on the fetus, it should be fine."

I have said it already and at the risk of sounding like a broken record..

1.I don't believe it is in our rights to stop people from seeking out abortionsand thus, if I ever saw the topic on a ballot, I would vote for the right to choose over the right of life.


2.I think abortions are morally wrong, but see #1.

Trying to convince me or anyone of the morality of the issue is pretty pointless if they are set on their beliefs. I already vote for the right to choose, I'm "on your side" in that respect as I believe, as said, that it isn't in my or anyone elses rights to stop a person from influencing what happens on their person. So I'm not really sure WHY you would want to convince me on a morality point when I've already sided on the most relevant point, legality. My belief of when life starts or morality has no place on a persons legal right.
 

Gavinmad

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I don't want to "nitpick" but how many newborns have you seen NOT subsisting off another living being?

This is an extension of your own logic so..
Quit being stupid, that isn't an extension of his logic, that's just you being a retard. If you pull a 3 month fetus out of the womb for an hour, it dies. If you leave a 3 month old infant alone in it's crib for an hour, it doesn't die.
 
558
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I don't want to "nitpick" but how many newborns have you seen NOT subsisting off another living being?

This is an extension of your own logic so..

I would argue that a child is not viable until about 4-8 years old at the least. I would argue that there are some ADULTS (non-mentally handicapped) that aren't capable of meeting your criteria.

Now if you simply mean that subsisting is being defined here as, "able to live for a period of time without intervention or assistance from another entity." Maybe I understand your logic if this is the case, because I'm sure that a newborn could exist for maybe a few days before it would require another being to care for it. If you are using the classical definition of "subsisting" then I would argue my previous points made.

Okay, so far I have heard as criteria for acceptable cases of abortion:

"If the things subsistence is contingent on another being."
"It isn't a real human being."
"It would inconvenience my life so, I don't care about the morality, get out the shop vac."
"As long as there is no brain on the fetus, it should be fine."

I have said it already and at the risk of sounding like a broken record..

1.I don't believe it is in our rights to stop people from seeking out abortionsand thus, if I ever saw the topic on a ballot, I would vote for the right to choose over the right of life.


2.I think abortions are morally wrong, but see #1.

Trying to convince me or anyone of the morality of the issue is pretty pointless if they are set on their beliefs. I already vote for the right to choose, I'm "on your side" in that respect as I believe, as said, that it isn't in my or anyone elses rights to stop a person from influencing what happens on their person. So I'm not really sure WHY you would want to convince me on a morality point when I've already sided on the most relevant point, legality. My belief of when life starts or morality has no place on a persons legal right.
I understand that, while you think abortions are immoral, you do not think that this morality should be applied to everyone. Kudos to you. But if you think an abortion is "killing", as in it should be equivalent in the eyes of society as if I just took out a knife and shanked someone, then you are mistaken.

Here is the problem with your application with my logic. A newborn is dependent on others for a variety of things, including food, shelter, protection, etc, BUT does NOT have to be dependent on the mother for these things. Another family can provide these essentials, or even an adoption home. If the baby's survival is contingent on being allowed shelter and sustenance inside the mother's womb, then we are talking about a competition of rights between the baby and the unwilling mother. When these rights conflict, the mother's rights should always win out. If a mother carries a baby to term and it is unwanted by the mother, she can always find someone willing to take care of the baby. But if another family decides to take the baby on and care for it, that entity is doing so BY CHOICE -- no one will force someone to take care of the baby against it's own free will.

I'll reiterate my point. I think an unborn baby should have rights. But the problem is, I don't think those rights should trump those of the mother. Thus, the mother choosing to have an abortion isn't murder, because the baby's survival was wholly contingent on being allowed shelter in the mother's womb. For example, if you were dying and needed a kidney from me to live, I should only donate my kidney out of my own free will. If I decline to give you my kidney, and this results in your death, this does not mean I "killed" you by refusing, because your survival was wholly contingent on me donating you the kidney in the first place.

I realize that you're on "my side". But to call abortions baby killing is 1) inaccurate, and 2) unhelpful to the conversation, regardless of which side you're on.
 

Caliane

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Life begins at conception.
And we should arrest all twins that kill and eat their siblings in the womb in the fetal state, the moment they are born.

Or maybe defining a mass of cells a person is stupid. the brain is not developed enough in the early stages to be called anything but a mass of cells.

I would be more willing to give pro-lifers some leeway if their were some kind of great support systems for the mothers. care, aid, adoptions, etc. But there is not.
A mother in the situation of needing an abortion, needs help. not someone telling them what they can and can't do. help or get the hell out of the way.
 

Lithose

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I'll reiterate my point. I think an unborn baby should have rights. But the problem is, I don't think those rights should trump those of the mother. Thus, the mother choosing to have an abortion isn't murder, because the baby's survival was wholly contingent on being allowed shelter in the mother's womb. For example, if you were dying and needed a kidney from me to live, I should only donate my kidney out of my own free will. If I decline to give you my kidney, and this results in your death, this does not mean I "killed" you by refusing, because your survival was wholly contingent on me donating you the kidney in the first place.

I realize that you're on "my side". But to call abortions baby killing is 1) inaccurate, and 2) unhelpful to the conversation, regardless of which side you're on.
My kidney disease is not a product of your choice. Your comparison is...well, lets say bad. Except in the cases of rape, a fetus' life isalwaysa product of the mother'schoice. It's precarious position is CAUSED by the mother. A more apt choice for your comparison is you inviting someone into your home, and then your stairs collapse and trap them--without you helping them, they will die. Under the law, you mostcertainlydohave a duty to protect and aid your guest in this situation, since he was placed in this situation and put under your power/care by your request.

It's still a stretch, because helping someone from under rubble, or calling medical assistance won't occupy your life for 9 months. BUT the fact is that it's a far closer comparison because it takes into account that the life in the balance was placed under your power by YOUR CHOICE. That's the ultimate consideration in the rationality of these things. The mother diminished her rights the moment she allowed herself to become pregnant, just like a home owner diminishes his rights to keep his home unsafe, the moment he invites a guest in. Your comparison lacks that accounting of choice and it's a HUGE reason why abortion is a lot more complex than rendering aid to a stranger, because the fetus is NOT just some random occurrence, it's not just some random life-form that comes from nowhere. Except in cases of rape, it was brought on by INVITATION, through a very specific act.

As for the rights of the mother "trumping" the fetus. I think the courts decision is very apt, and a great decision in an imperfect world. Once the fetus is considered "human" by the minimal standards, the question becomes about how sacred (In a secular sense) the rights in question are. The mother's rights to liberty is beingtemporarilyimpinged. It's a fundamental right in this country (stated in the Declaration, enshrined in many facets of the Constitution.), but it's only being abated for 9 months+whatever amount of time an adoption takes/recovery from the pregnancy. The mother also has a statistically low chance to be stricken of the right to life through complications (Sub 1%), and that SHOULD be a consideration, especially give it's societies fault she might not have healthcare. However, the "viable fetus'" life (Which again, the courts classify as human after the first trimester) is having it's right to lifepermanentlystricken. It also completely losesallof it's other fundamental rights.

Quite simply, from a rational perspective, you're looking at trading the temporary liberty of one person, for all the rights in total, in permanence, of another. There is no reasonable comparison here--no rational person could say the mother's rights are more important here....IF you consider the child alive.

And that's the point of the debate. When life starts. The truly irrational people are the ones who believe a fetus at 8 months is not human, or at 2 weeks is a human. They have taken the debate to ideological levels. Once we define when life begins, the argument between rights becomes exceedingly simplistic in a rational sense. It's that line of demarcation where we define life that makes this a difficult argument.

And I think that line comes after the first trimester. Personally, I think all abortion is awful. But I don't blame the mother for this barbarity. I blame a society that makes single mothers outcasts, and makes it difficult for them to find jobs, go to school and improve their life. I blame a society that doesn't provide basic healthcare to it's citizens despite being able to. I blame a society that makes life so harsh, even in the midst of plenty, that mothers would even think about terminating their pregnancies. And that is why there must be this window when we can justify ending it before it's a life--because society can't offer proper healthcare and infrastructure to mother's, nor can it provide adequate (And free) means to prevent pregnancies for mothers, then it has no right to outlaw it completely. (Again, until it becomes a full "human" in our eyes.)

Personally, if it were up to me, I'd combat abortion by first truly being "Pro-life" and not just "Pro-birth". Much like the gun debate, I think the laws on abortion are targeting overly simplistic and ultimately symbolic symptoms of the problem. If we really want to lower abortions, then we make it both safer and easier to access all the things a mother and her baby will need to make a life for themselves--once you do that, I think you'll see a dramatic drop in the abortion numbers, far more than any illegality would get you (And yes, I know they are low already.)
 

chaos

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I think most of us would agree that once the collection of cells becomes a human being, it should not be killed.
That is the major sticking point, no one can agree on when that is. Personally, I don't think there is some magical threshold. You wouldn't call a toddler just a collection of cells because it isn't an adult yet. I think the entire argument of "when is/isn't it human" is something people have so they don't have to feel bad about what happens. It is easier to dehumanize the impacted party rather than deal with the fact that hey, this was a life and that life is gone.