Ancient Civilizations

Chris

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I honestly dont even know if they could do it these days at those tolerances, and if they could it would cost a fucking fortune to do so, even with computers and the finest lathes available. But even so you have to imagine that these things were supposedly made by bronze age civilization? Preposterous.
One master craftsman would have been honing his art for decades then spent years making this one perfect item, sanding it to perfection.

You seen some of those renaissance statues? They didn't have any technology either.
 
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mkopec

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One master craftsman would have been honing his art for decades then spent years making this one perfect item, sanding it to perfection.

You seen some of those renaissance statues? They didn't have any technology either.
You dont get it, go watch the video. You can hone your craft for 3 lifetimes and you will not come up with a perfect vase with .001" run out and .001" perfect perpendicularity. Sorry not possible.
 
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Chris

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You dont get it, go watch the video. You can hone your craft for 3 lifetimes and you will not come up with a perfect vase with .001" run out and .001" perfect perpendicularity. Sorry not possible.
So what do you think happened?
 

mkopec

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So what do you think happened?
I have no fucking idea, but they got made somehow. Im betting on a lost ancient civilization that was prob as advanced as us but in a different way, erased from this earth by a cataclysmic event. Thats my bet. I mean how else do you explain that? Aliens? there is just no fucking way bronze age people that have not even invented the wheel yet could get perfection like this in their manufacturing of stone. Honestly, like I said, I dont even think this could be reproduced to that caliber of tolerances by us today.
 
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Chris

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I have no fucking idea, but they got made somehow. Im betting on a lost ancient civilization that was prob as advanced as us but in a different way, erased from this earth by a cataclysmic event. Thats my bet. I mean how else do you explain that? Aliens? there is just no fucking way bronze age people that have not even invented the wheel yet could get perfection like this in their manufacturing of stone. Honestly, like I said, I dont even think this could be reproduced to that caliber of tolerances by us today.
How would we do it today? Put it on a wheel, spin it around and sand it down?

The tech part is the wheel being perfect, the sanding material being strong enough, the spinning being an even speed, sensors measuring progress?

I dunno, if you spent your entire life doing it I bet you could get pretty fucking good. I'm sure they had a few things we don't know they had like the wheel.

Seems a lot more likely than some unknown branch of high technology that all disintegrated without evidence.
 

Lenardo

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well if you Think about it, there is the possibility that AROUND 10k years ago or so, there might have been a more advanced civilization that had access to more advanced materials and it was destroyed when the ice age ended (lands got flooded due to rising sea levels etc) the difficulty for these vases is not really the precision IF they had the wheel, if they did, then that precision is possible (turning on a lathe) we just do not know how they cut the stone given what evidence is around for the tools used back when the "official narrative" says they were made we have never found a lathe type tool from that age.

that is the main issue, the "official narrative" says it was made at "this time" but all evidence from the tools found FROM "this time" couldn't make those artifacts in a timely manner- and there are apparently hundreds of these artifacts around all made to an amazingly precise finish. plus the statue faces are perfectly symmetrical along the axis of the face. again almost impossible to do "freehand" a jig of some sort had to have been used to guide the tools.

all circumstantial evidence points to the possibility that the "official narrative" is wrong. but until we find more concrete proof- and gobekli tepi and those 10k old sites being found- is starting to eat away from the dogma position.
 

mkopec

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LOl you guys still dont understand what .001" tolerance really means. Or .002" perfect thickness of a stone vase. Go try and spin a piece of granite on your lathe and get back to us when you can achieve those perfect tolerances.

How hard is it to believe there was some advanced people before 10K years ago when they found hominoid bones dating back 100 thousands of yeas? Look at us and how far we have gotten in the past 120 yrs alone, which is a blink of an eye when you deal with millenia. We went from horse and buggy to sporting pocket computers and having drones land on mars.
 
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MusicForFish

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^^^^^Reminds me of this.
20231101_093201.jpg
 
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mkopec

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And still 2000 yrs is nothing compared to how long we have been here. Look, whose to say that my theory is right? who the fuck knows? But I do know for a fact being an engineer that you can not make shit precise like that with sandpaper on a lathe, lol. 1/16th of an inch? 1/32nd if youre a fucking pro? Sure I could buy that. But a THOUSANDTH of an inch? Yeah not gonna happen. And like chuck said, they found thousands of these things, not all of them measured, of course. But the ones that have been measured are all that accurate or close to it. Down to +/-5 thousandth of an inch.
 
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Aldarion

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LOl you guys still dont understand what .001" tolerance really means. Or .002" perfect thickness of a stone vase. Go try and spin a piece of granite on your lathe and get back to us when you can achieve those perfect tolerances.

How hard is it to believe there was some advanced people before 10K years ago when they found hominoid bones dating back 100 thousands of yeas? Look at us and how far we have gotten in the past 120 yrs alone, which is a blink of an eye when you deal with millenia. We went from horse and buggy to sporting pocket computers and having drones land on mars.
I think one of the obstacles is that a lot of people imagine stuff - the evidence of civilization - lasts longer than it does. The idea that the evidence of past civilizations has vanished seems unbelievable to some.

IMO ice ages and the resulting changes in sea level would be enough to wipe out not just one but multiple cycles of past civilizations easily.
 
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Lenardo

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I disagree. with a lathe and an adjustable jig 0.001 is possible on wood metal and stone with today's tech, and tech that is 100+ years old.

just need that jig to have adjustments that are minute in adjustment scale.. a screw setup would work relatively easily for the adjustment part. it just needs to be rigid and adjustable, we just haven't found something like that. not saying how they did it, but with a rigid adjustable jig and a lathe setup, it IS possible, we just don't know how the fuck they pulled it off 4-12 thousand years ago without some sort of wheel and screw setup.

hell for all we know they could have had laser cutting, until we find proof of how they were made, it is ALL conjecture and projection on our part.
 

Chukzombi

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christ, you cant run that pot over a fucking lathe, it has handles, its one piece and the inside is so thin and smooth that light emits through it. we have NOTHING that can do that. there is no lathe for that shit. on granite.
 
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pharmakos

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One master craftsman would have been honing his art for decades then spent years making this one perfect item, sanding it to perfection.

You seen some of those renaissance statues? They didn't have any technology either.
I've worked as a production laborer in a factory setting. Genuine fucking miracle worker would have to be running the place for that much product to all match spec to that level of detail.
 
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Chukzombi

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lets establish what we are arguing over.
Vase 1 “Beehive”:
vase1.jpg

vase 2
vase2.jpg


Vase 3 “Spinner”:
vase3.jpg

Vase 5 “Ultra Thin”:
vase5.jpg

This supplemental study is a hands-on approach to stone vessel
analysis in an applied setting and intended to be more easily under-
stood by readers without a background in engineering or metrolo-
gy.
Each vessel was selected due to its granite composition and high-
precision craftsmanship. Structured Light scanning and CT (X-ray)
scanning have also been performed on each object, allowing for
rigorous, precise, and repeatable analysis.
The plate layout inspection is performed on standard rotary table
(“rotab”) attached to a granite surface plate, which when rotated
revealed <= 0.001 inch runout on the outer diameter and <= 0.001
runout on the top surface.
A perpendicular line coaxial with the center of rotation is defined
as the Z axis. Depending on the object's geometry, three (3) or
four (4) individual points along the Z axis of the body of the vessel
are selected to locate the tips of each dial indicator (figure 1) held
securely in height stands (figure 2). The tips are deflected and test-
ed to ensure that they have free +/- movement. The distance from
the tip to the top surface of the rotab is measured and recorded.
The surface variance between lug handles is also measured as this
continuity is of primary interest.
Concentricity, Roundness and continuity are measured as the
rotab turns 360 degrees, allowing each mounted dial indicator to
measure surface deviations down to less than one half thousandth
(0.0005) of an inch. The surface variance between lug handles,
which interrupt the continuity, is also measured as the continuity
is of primary interest.
Where possible, the wall thickness is measured with Dyer Dial
thickness gages placed at four (4) approximate equidistant points
around Area C. (see figure 3)
A control variable is also introduced: a black and white marble
vase manufactured in the mid 1990s using modern lathe machin-
ery. Notably, no modern machined vessels with lug handles could
be located. Though marble is considerably softer than granite, we
encourage readers to acknowledge the precision in construction
as it relates to the ancient granite vessels that have traditionally
been considered to be entirely hand-made
 
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Chris

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For me for this stuff it's just:

1) Did they have way more sophisticated techniques and tools then we thought for this stuff, probably time and labour intensive, probably a lot of wooden tools like wheels that rotted away, probably a genius level craftsman?

2) Did they have some sort of crazy parallel tech tree with soundwave levitation, rock dissolving acids or even aliens that all somehow vanished without a trace?

Whatever leap you are making to accept exotic tech, there's a much smaller leap that some genius found a way with what they had.
 

Chukzombi

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For me for this stuff it's just:

1) Did they have way more sophisticated techniques and tools then we thought for this stuff, probably time and labour intensive, probably a lot of wooden tools like wheels that rotted away, probably a genius level craftsman?

2) Did they have some sort of crazy parallel tech tree with soundwave levitation, rock dissolving acids or even aliens that all somehow vanished without a trace?

Whatever leap you are making to accept exotic tech, there's a much smaller leap that some genius found a way with what they had.
thousands of these exist, wooden wheels or no wooden wheels are gonna do what? what is labor intensive even mean in this regard? .0001 has nothing to do with labor or wheels. its has to do with precision and a cutting tool equal to the hardness of granite capable of cutting on the outside as well as the inside so thin to where light shines through it.
thin vase.jpg

you have a one piece stone vase that has handles that defeats any lathe theory. stone thats harder than bronze tools. stop trying to blow this off as some 10,000 year old nerd sitting in his mom's basement working on one piece that somehow has a .0001 precise runout. either you know how this was done or you dont. nobody knows. its extremely difficult and expensive to duplicate this today with the aid of computers
 
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Chris

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thousands of these exist, wooden wheels or no wooden wheels are gonna do what? what is labor intensive even mean in this regard? .0001 has nothing to do with labor or wheels. its has to do with precision and a cutting tool equal to the hardness of granite capable of cutting on the outside as well as the inside so thin to where light shines through it.
View attachment 498646
you have a one piece stone vase that has handles that defeats any lathe theory. stone thats harder than bronze tools. stop trying to blow this off as some 10,000 year old nerd sitting in his mom's basement working on one piece that somehow has a .0001 precise runout. either you know how this was done or you dont. nobody knows. its extremely difficult and expensive to duplicate this today with the aid of computers
Are they all 0.001 or just the best examples?

Again what's the alternative here?
 

mkopec

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I disagree. with a lathe and an adjustable jig 0.001 is possible on wood metal and stone with today's tech, and tech that is 100+ years old.

just need that jig to have adjustments that are minute in adjustment scale.. a screw setup would work relatively easily for the adjustment part. it just needs to be rigid and adjustable, we just haven't found something like that. not saying how they did it, but with a rigid adjustable jig and a lathe setup, it IS possible, we just don't know how the fuck they pulled it off 4-12 thousand years ago without some sort of wheel and screw setup.

hell for all we know they could have had laser cutting, until we find proof of how they were made, it is ALL conjecture and projection on our part.
I agree, who the hell knows? But modern Archeology tells us that this is BS and these things were made by bronze age people less than 5K years ago. they are handwaving this shit away and still claiming no civ before this ever existed and all these things were made by bronze tools and sand.

Also, I just looked it up and modern CNC machining on a lathe or 5 axis mill is +/- .005 so we could prob achieve this on a modern CnC machine either 5 axis or lathe then transfer to 5 axis for handles, but once you change tooling it increases tolerances massively, so there is that too.

There is also this to consider....

Do you need tight tolerances?
Since tolerance directly reflects the accuracy of a part, the first look can make it appear that it is always better to have tight tolerances. However, for CNC machined parts, tight tolerances can increase the cost of production and lead to a time-consuming process. Therefore, use of tight tolerances should be incorporated when it is required.

Tight tolerances are generally needed in cases when a part is going to be used in secondary assembly processes. Loose tolerances in these cases can lead to a failure in acceptable assembly. Therefore, there is a high focus on the tolerance band.


So even if this was possible back then, and it def seems like it was since we have the artifacts, why the fuck would they spend extra time and resources to apply such tight tolerances on such insignificant trivial items like vases and cups and bowls? Does not make sense, since the tighter the tolerance, the more costly and more time consuming the item is. And these tight tolerances cannot be discerned by a naked eye. I tried to look up what degree of tolerance a human eye can discern but could not find info other than +/-4 degrees when it comes to parallelism. But we can all agree that a human cannot tell the difference between .01 and .001 by naked eye.
 
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Chukzombi

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Are they all 0.001 or just the best examples?

Again what's the alternative here?
No, some aren't that precise. Others range up to .0005 or .0008. Still nothing achievable by any known technology in 9000 BC. The alternative is the unknown. There are other hominid species and some were more evolutionarily advanced than modern man. We can guess they were smarter too. What happened to them is also a guess, likely killed in the same mass extinction even that wiped out all the megafaunae 12 or so thousand years ago. None of this is about UFOs or magic or the supernatural. If I had to guess how these stone vases were mass produced, I'd say it was by some means of melting the stone and it forming these natural shapes on their own. The handles though could be a manipulation during this process. The holes look crude.
 

mkopec

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Chuck its not 4 places its 3 to get to thousandth of inch. 4 places is referred to "tenth of a thousandth"