Bitcoins/Litecoins/Virtual Currencies

Arative

Arative

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ronne said:
So here's my question about crypto, but this is mostly specific to Bitcoin: How far can this go without the currency itself holding any tangible value? Currently the only thing BTC is good for is buying drugs, is that enough to prop this market up? Cause I don't think it is.

The current numbers are insane to me for something that's only purpose currently is buying illegal goods. BTC being a "legitimate" currency isn't even really technically possible with the limitations on blockchain transactions, and has there been any indication that's even going to get changed/fixed? Even if they DO resolve that, how the fuck can anyone expect this to ever be a legitimate currency when it can fluctuate thousands in value in a matter of hours?

I mean, I get it, people like to day trade in all kinds of dumb shit, but this just smells of a Ponzi setup at this point, with the early adopters and long-term holding relying on the current hype train of noobs to keep inflating their "investment".
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You can buy more than drugs with btc. Overstock and Newegg both take btc. Rumor is Amazon is looking at taking it. The CME will begin trading futures in December and the nasdaq is looking at futures in 2018. So it does have more value than just drugs.

The block size is a concern and I think it is being addressed but since changes require consensus among the community, it's slow going. Plus everyone has their own ideas on how to address it.
 
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ronne

ronne

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Sure I know about Overstock and all that shit, but it seems like such a fucking volatile thing to try and exchange directly for goods. I'm sure they lock the price for a certain time window or whatever, but shit by the time you add items to a cart and finish checkout BTC could have gone up or down several hundred dollars some days.
 
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Tripamang

Tripamang

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Ravishing said:
Currency has been going digital for a while. Crypto is the next logical step. Countries could theoretically start their own official crypto currency. Paper is tangible, but worthless, it's not backed by gold anymore.

The reason the price rises is because there is a finite number.... but it is infinitely divisible.
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I've never gotten the whole gold thing. If there was enough gold in the world to cover every lady on earth the stuff from head to toe, then it's essentially worthless and you're arguing over who has the biggest dirt pile. I don't think the value of gold has any real tangible connection to an economy at all, as it isn't something that industries are clamoring to get their hands on to use it for industrial purposes. The last thing I'd want is somebody finding a huge deposit of gold and then my currency being devalued because of it, despite having a solid economy.

It just makes a lot more sense to base the value of a currency on the actual activity and confidence people have in the economies that back it. If just having money guaranteed success then fixing the third world be a joke, but it that clearly isn't the case. People build and maintain economies while gold plays little to no role in that system at all. In the case of digital currencies the value is in the technology and being able to separate money from governments like we separated church from state. Long term it's going to change the way governments behave and give people a very real out when shit starts hitting the fan, see places like Venezuela and Zimbawbwe for examples. Short of physical torture and jailing there won't really be a way for governments to know how much money you have, or force you to give it to them. If paying the government for services becomes voluntary, I can only help it leads to better government that provide services are worth the money you're paying to get them.
 
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Ravishing

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Tripamang said:
I've never gotten the whole gold thing. If there was enough gold in the world to cover every lady on earth the stuff from head to toe, then it's essentially worthless and you're arguing over who has the biggest dirt pile. I don't think the value of gold has any real tangible connection to an economy at all, as it isn't something that industries are clamoring to get their hands on to use it for industrial purposes. The last thing I'd want is somebody finding a huge deposit of gold and then my currency being devalued because of it, despite having a solid economy.

It just makes a lot more sense to base the value of a currency on the actual activity and confidence people have in the economies that back it. If just having money guaranteed success then fixing the third world be a joke, but it that clearly isn't the case. People build and maintain economies while gold plays little to no role at all in that system at all. In the case of digital currencies the value is in the technology and being able to separate money from governments like we separated church from state. Long term it's going to change the way governments behave and give people a very real out when shit starts hitting the fan, see places like Venezuela and Zimbawbwe for examples. Short of physical torture and jailing there won't really be a way for governments to know how much money you have, or force you to give it to them. If paying the government for services becomes voluntary, I can only help it leads to better government that provide services are worth the money you're paying to get them.
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Which goes to the point that digital 1s and 0s can be treated the same as paper money, or even gold, because none of it is really worth anything... HOWEVER, to your point on gold specifically, I gotta imagine gold has been used simply because of its history. Gold was a universal currency and then nations started printing money backed by gold, and now the paper isn't backed at all because of the evolution of things.

Also, Gold's high value most likely originates from the price to acquire gold (from a mine), and now Bitcoin's price is partially related to the cost to mine it as well... No matter what happens with bitcoin's price, as it's value rises, mining cost rise & fall proportionally. It may lag behind the markets a bit, as is expected with such volatility.
 
General Antony

General Antony

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Ravishing said:
Countries could theoretically start their own official crypto currency.
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People say this but I don't think they understand the implications. In order to for a central authority to do this they need to take away all the qualities that make crypto attractive.
 
Ravishing

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General Antony said:
People say this but I don't think they understand the implications. In order to for a central authority to do this they need to take away all the qualities that make crypto attractive.
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you're right, it wouldnt be a crypto currency... but crypto is paving the way toward completely digital currencies. USD is basically a hybrid at this point. Government would never let "miners" into the loop, they'd keep it closed off so they can control it... but the big appeal is they'll know where every dollar and cent is. People won't need to do taxes anymore, govt will know what you've earned, etc.... It's a scary scenario tbh and not one I think we really want.

The only real benefit for citizens is it could deter theft. Assuming hacking was able to be kept at bay, perhaps someone forces you to transfer digital dollars over to them, but reporting it could allow a reverse of the transaction. Not possible with "Crypto" but yea..
 
Xarpolis

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A friend of mine a few years back got into bitcoin mining. He got a loan from a bank for like $200k to buy a ton of computer hardware and rent a space in town. Then he sold it all 2 years ago for $600k.
He just linked this. Looks like he still had a TON of coins from his mining days...

OftqbYX.jpg
 
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Scoresby

Scoresby

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Ravishing said:
you're right, it wouldnt be a crypto currency... but crypto is paving the way toward completely digital currencies. USD is basically a hybrid at this point. Government would never let "miners" into the loop, they'd keep it closed off so they can control it... but the big appeal is they'll know where every dollar and cent is. People won't need to do taxes anymore, govt will know what you've earned, etc.... It's a scary scenario tbh and not one I think we really want.

The only real benefit for citizens is it could deter theft. Assuming hacking was able to be kept at bay, perhaps someone forces you to transfer digital dollars over to them, but reporting it could allow a reverse of the transaction. Not possible with "Crypto" but yea..
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It's really the decentralized aspect of mining and the energy cost to mine itself that give bitcoin inoculation from meddling / fraud (or in the case of nations printing cash leading to hyperinflation) and a basis for value (energy cost).

I agree with what others have said that crypto currencies like BTC are not the best at serving as a currency but will have a role as a store of value, especially as a hedge against stocks...suspect during the next recession there will be a huge shift into crypto akin to gold bugs buying up gold in 2009.

The risk comes in that with it being new tech, which cryptos will survive and which will not. In the interim you have tons of speculation and a vibrant market for day-trading. Lots of people making lots of money with a very real chance that most crypto will eventually turn into nothing given enough time. No one wants to be left standing when the music stops.

I am currently long on BTC simply because of the market dominance and the social aspect that most of the population does not understand how crypto works, much less what distinguishes one vs another, so they will jump onto the hype train rather than investing In a fringe tech. Guess time will tell!
 
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Tuco

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General Antony said:
People say this but I don't think they understand the implications. In order to for a central authority to do this they need to take away all the qualities that make crypto attractive.
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One way I could see it happen is if a country has their currency completely devalued by terrible management and a coup or constitutional crisis happens where the usurpers want a cryptocurrency used.

I think this would be much more likely if the cryptocurrency tech was much, much better than bitcoin is now, and the population already adopted it during the country's crisis because nobody wanted to trade Zimbabwe bux or whatever and didn't want to use gold / USD / bottlecaps.

That's a lot of hypotheticals, I don't see why a govt would want to force itself into absolute fiscal responsibility by dropping control of their currency.
 
Pops

Pops

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Good luck with this. Sooner or later it will get reigned in. No gov't can allow their power to be usurped. When the crash comes it will bring down the markets. We will all feel the sting. This and things like TSLA are the canaries.
 
wormie

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It will get reined in unless some southeast asian island kingdom sets up world wide accepted crypto currency backed by nazi gold, amirite?
 
Khane

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Tuco said:
One way I could see it happen is if a country has their currency completely devalued by terrible management and a coup or constitutional crisis happens where the usurpers want a cryptocurrency used.

I think this would be much more likely if the cryptocurrency tech was much, much better than bitcoin is now, and the population already adopted it during the country's crisis because nobody wanted to trade Zimbabwe bux or whatever and didn't want to use gold / USD / bottlecaps.

That's a lot of hypotheticals, I don't see why a govt would want to force itself into absolute fiscal responsibility by dropping control of their currency.
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Growing number of Venezuelans trade bolivars for bitcoins to buy necessities

Venezuela's Central Bank Explores Cryptocurrency Options - Cryptovest
 
General Antony

General Antony

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Tuco said:
One way I could see it happen is if a country has their currency completely devalued by terrible management and a coup or constitutional crisis happens where the usurpers want a cryptocurrency used.

I think this would be much more likely if the cryptocurrency tech was much, much better than bitcoin is now, and the population already adopted it during the country's crisis because nobody wanted to trade Zimbabwe bux or whatever and didn't want to use gold / USD / bottlecaps.

That's a lot of hypotheticals, I don't see why a govt would want to force itself into absolute fiscal responsibility by dropping control of their currency.
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You think a country that destroys its own currency through mismanagement can then implement a cryptocurrency successfully? What upside does a command-and-control government run "crypto" bring to the table that doesn't already exist in electronic national currencies? The benefits of crypto are all anathema to the nation state model. Decentralized, immutable, uncensorable, etc. all of these qualities are in no way going to be kept in any national "crypto."

The divine right of the bureaucracy to manage monetary policy has as much validity as the divine right of kings to rule. One has fallen, and so will the other.
 
Dr Neir

Dr Neir

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Heard about Monero from DTNS yesterday, would be guessing Friday's podcast. Im always behind a day.
Looking into it. Seems to have some odd things related to it and scam with bytecoin. Not totally sure if related, from my understanding its not and legit. But interesting stuff, Browser calc hash.
 
Scoresby

Scoresby

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Dr Neir said:
Heard about Monero from DTNS yesterday, would be guessing Friday's podcast. Im always behind a day.
Looking into it. Seems to have some odd things related to it and scam with bytecoin. Not totally sure if related, from my understanding its not and legit. But interesting stuff, Browser calc hash.
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Have been mining it for a few days. Monero handles anonymity better than Bitcoin and also works on a (for now) slight inflationary system, but one which supposedly has an algorithm that is resistant to hardware mining so for now gaming rigs do a decent job of it. Stand to make about $2500 a year (at current rates) after power costs just running the wife and my gaming rigs. There has been a few steps this past year in growth, the first one a big one from like $2 - $80 or so, and more recently pushing up through $200.
 
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