black islamist beheads British soldier in London
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Big Phoenix
Pronouns: zie/zhem/zer
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I wouldnt expect soccermoms and the like to just charge the dude and start fighting him but jesus man watch the videos. People just walking by like nothing has happened.
BrutulTM
Good, bad, I'm the guy with the gun.
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Mohammad said that women were equal to men. Then it just turned out that God wanted men to treat their equals worse than dogs and if you rape your equal it's her fault and if you want to make a 9 year old equal your wife and fuck her that's perfectly normal, perfectly healthy.
The Sweden Democrats is nationalistic party on the far right (by Swedish standards, so it would probably be considered pretty moderate almost anywhere else). They are fairly close to the mark here although the picture is a bit more complicated.
Many refugees/immigrants during recent years have ended up in the same areas. Since they are in a majority in these places they tend to learn Swedish slowly if at all. It doesn't help quite a few arrive illiterate. This means that the kids will have a hard time in school and older people will have a hard time getting work. The demand for unskilled labor with poor Swedish skills is very limited, so a lot of them will end up being unemployed. A perfect breeding ground for trouble. I also have to agree that many of them seem rather unwilling to try to integrate into society. There are even cases of girls being killed by their families for dating swedes. How's that for integration?
There has been a lot of immigration in the past in Sweden, but that was mainly people from other European countries moving here to work. All in all it worked out pretty well since they actually wanted to be a part of society -- and we love those guys for saving us from traditional Swedish food.
Szlia
Member
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Some comments:
1) About the mass e-mail posted earlier with the super theory about the percentage of muslim population and what it means, the bullshit-o-meter rings often. I am in Switzerland where muslims apparently have an inordinate impact on policy making, forcing halal menus in restaurants or what not... that must be through the magic of prayer, because I can't think of a single elected official that is a muslim and since our bizarre system has many elements of direct democracy, it's supremely difficult for a minority, even a vocal one, to get much of anything without it being diluted in twelve layers of consensus (there are a lot more women and french speaker than muslims in Switzerland and usually both end with a pout on their face after votes). In fact muslims are so influent in Switzerland that a popular initiative fueled by the far right was passed to ban the construction of minarets... What would we do without the far right to save us all from islamization? A good think there are like five minarets in the country and no project to build additional ones!
The e-mail also mentions France, noting there are islam fueled car burnings and pockets of sharia law in 100% muslim ghettoes... That's pure right wing fantasy land. First, we are talking about a country that had colonies in northern Africa and that gave french citizenship to many people who fought for France during WWII or on the side of the french during the independence war of Algeria. These guys were parked in projects (along with all maters of migrants and poors) and through the marvel of shitty urbanism and centralized everything, the projects are cultural and economical wastelands. Civil unrest in France is not a question of islam or not islam, it's a question of poor people in shitty projects (where the majority of muslims living in France are parked). Remember that France is also the country where you cannot teach or study in public schools if you wear a headscarf (because republican value of separation of church and state). As in just about every country on earth, there are pockets where the rule of law has trouble reaching, but there are not 100% muslims under sharia law. There are though a number of cases of forced marriages (illegal), inter-generational conflicts, brothers against sisters, excision (illegal), etc... but it has more to do with additional layers of social practices and cultural shock (children being more westernized than parents) than islam itself (I don't remember the name of it, but some albanians for instance have a bullshit honor code that make them kill left and right for the most egregious of reasons).
I also enjoyed the mention of the level of islamization of Bosnia as the root of its problems, conveniently forgetting the institutionalized campaigns of mass rape initiated by the very christian serbs on croatian and bosnian women (stay classy eastern orthodox people!)...
2) About the notion that terrorists at some point wanted to attack the west by jealousy over their freedom....
...
...
wat.
3) About secular liberals, far right and islam in Occident... the integration in a model of society of a population that is used to another model of society that is party motivated by a religious faith is a very complex thing. When confronted with complex problems a good technique is to break them down until you have simple problems you can solve or at least sorta solve, while keeping an eye on the problem as whole and... yeah: it's complex.
Far right tend to use another and appealing approach: Pretend the complex problem is in fact a simple problem and solve it. 'Send them all home', 'Turn the whole middle east into a parking lot!', 'Make islam illegal!', etc. That's not a good way to go about it, mainly because of its disregard for things like reality and consequences. Secular liberals are not in a good place to brag though, because as much as they would like an harmonious multicultural society where everyone is made richer and wiser by the tradition of others, it's pretty much impossible to do without shedding elements in these cultures that go against tolerance, against multiculturalism or against a number of social evolution perceived as progress by the aforementioned liberals but as total decadence by some others (like say... sex before marriage or abortion). More problematic is the fact that deep down, for a secular liberal, someone who lets a religion dictates the way he lives is basically mentally handicapped. So... very tolerant but... yeah. 'You can be religious, but please don't act like it, let it die with you and just preserve these historical documents and nice work of arts', more polite than the far left's 'Stop being retarded: ban all religions!'
4) Asherah with his swedish point of view put his finger on an important component of the complexity: the nature of the immigration waves. In Switzerland there were huge waves of italian, spanish and portuguese immigrants. They were mostly made of economic migrations, people came to work in the fields, to help build dams, dig tunnels through the Alps, etc. There were social differences, problems with literacy, etc but the integration is ultimately very harmonious (and it's not an assimilation: there are plenty of cultural centers, clubs, obviously restaurants, extracurricular schools, keeping alive the foreign heritage). Waves also have been caused by the explosion of Yougoslavia and already the context was more difficult, not only because of the greater cultural differences, but also because it was mostly non-voluntary, poorly planed exile, a flight from a conflict fueled by ethnic affirmation (you don't flee from war-thorn, secessionist Croatia to stop being a croatian). Integration is at this point mostly harmonious and I don't doubt than in 20 years it will be as harmonious as with the previous waves. Recent waves from Northern Africa and the Middle East even have a greater cultural gap to fill (though smaller than previous waves of tamils from Sri Lanka) and they arrived with a hurt pride that favorscommunautarisme(interesting that the word exists in french and not in english: the tendency of a community - whatever its nature - to shut itself up and become an island in the society as a whole). Most will end-up in the lower end of the socio-economic spectrum with all the frustration that entails and the petty crime that goes with it and we are now in the rough patch. A patch that may be rougher than before, but I think I'll keep a very swiss optimism about it: as wind and water erode the stone, time and a tradition of tolerance and consensus should do the trick (well helped by an economy healthier than most). Ironic quote of the day: 'There is no problem that doesn't end solved by a lack of solution' - Edgar Faure (french politician)
1) About the mass e-mail posted earlier with the super theory about the percentage of muslim population and what it means, the bullshit-o-meter rings often. I am in Switzerland where muslims apparently have an inordinate impact on policy making, forcing halal menus in restaurants or what not... that must be through the magic of prayer, because I can't think of a single elected official that is a muslim and since our bizarre system has many elements of direct democracy, it's supremely difficult for a minority, even a vocal one, to get much of anything without it being diluted in twelve layers of consensus (there are a lot more women and french speaker than muslims in Switzerland and usually both end with a pout on their face after votes). In fact muslims are so influent in Switzerland that a popular initiative fueled by the far right was passed to ban the construction of minarets... What would we do without the far right to save us all from islamization? A good think there are like five minarets in the country and no project to build additional ones!
The e-mail also mentions France, noting there are islam fueled car burnings and pockets of sharia law in 100% muslim ghettoes... That's pure right wing fantasy land. First, we are talking about a country that had colonies in northern Africa and that gave french citizenship to many people who fought for France during WWII or on the side of the french during the independence war of Algeria. These guys were parked in projects (along with all maters of migrants and poors) and through the marvel of shitty urbanism and centralized everything, the projects are cultural and economical wastelands. Civil unrest in France is not a question of islam or not islam, it's a question of poor people in shitty projects (where the majority of muslims living in France are parked). Remember that France is also the country where you cannot teach or study in public schools if you wear a headscarf (because republican value of separation of church and state). As in just about every country on earth, there are pockets where the rule of law has trouble reaching, but there are not 100% muslims under sharia law. There are though a number of cases of forced marriages (illegal), inter-generational conflicts, brothers against sisters, excision (illegal), etc... but it has more to do with additional layers of social practices and cultural shock (children being more westernized than parents) than islam itself (I don't remember the name of it, but some albanians for instance have a bullshit honor code that make them kill left and right for the most egregious of reasons).
I also enjoyed the mention of the level of islamization of Bosnia as the root of its problems, conveniently forgetting the institutionalized campaigns of mass rape initiated by the very christian serbs on croatian and bosnian women (stay classy eastern orthodox people!)...
2) About the notion that terrorists at some point wanted to attack the west by jealousy over their freedom....
...
...
wat.
3) About secular liberals, far right and islam in Occident... the integration in a model of society of a population that is used to another model of society that is party motivated by a religious faith is a very complex thing. When confronted with complex problems a good technique is to break them down until you have simple problems you can solve or at least sorta solve, while keeping an eye on the problem as whole and... yeah: it's complex.
Far right tend to use another and appealing approach: Pretend the complex problem is in fact a simple problem and solve it. 'Send them all home', 'Turn the whole middle east into a parking lot!', 'Make islam illegal!', etc. That's not a good way to go about it, mainly because of its disregard for things like reality and consequences. Secular liberals are not in a good place to brag though, because as much as they would like an harmonious multicultural society where everyone is made richer and wiser by the tradition of others, it's pretty much impossible to do without shedding elements in these cultures that go against tolerance, against multiculturalism or against a number of social evolution perceived as progress by the aforementioned liberals but as total decadence by some others (like say... sex before marriage or abortion). More problematic is the fact that deep down, for a secular liberal, someone who lets a religion dictates the way he lives is basically mentally handicapped. So... very tolerant but... yeah. 'You can be religious, but please don't act like it, let it die with you and just preserve these historical documents and nice work of arts', more polite than the far left's 'Stop being retarded: ban all religions!'
4) Asherah with his swedish point of view put his finger on an important component of the complexity: the nature of the immigration waves. In Switzerland there were huge waves of italian, spanish and portuguese immigrants. They were mostly made of economic migrations, people came to work in the fields, to help build dams, dig tunnels through the Alps, etc. There were social differences, problems with literacy, etc but the integration is ultimately very harmonious (and it's not an assimilation: there are plenty of cultural centers, clubs, obviously restaurants, extracurricular schools, keeping alive the foreign heritage). Waves also have been caused by the explosion of Yougoslavia and already the context was more difficult, not only because of the greater cultural differences, but also because it was mostly non-voluntary, poorly planed exile, a flight from a conflict fueled by ethnic affirmation (you don't flee from war-thorn, secessionist Croatia to stop being a croatian). Integration is at this point mostly harmonious and I don't doubt than in 20 years it will be as harmonious as with the previous waves. Recent waves from Northern Africa and the Middle East even have a greater cultural gap to fill (though smaller than previous waves of tamils from Sri Lanka) and they arrived with a hurt pride that favorscommunautarisme(interesting that the word exists in french and not in english: the tendency of a community - whatever its nature - to shut itself up and become an island in the society as a whole). Most will end-up in the lower end of the socio-economic spectrum with all the frustration that entails and the petty crime that goes with it and we are now in the rough patch. A patch that may be rougher than before, but I think I'll keep a very swiss optimism about it: as wind and water erode the stone, time and a tradition of tolerance and consensus should do the trick (well helped by an economy healthier than most). Ironic quote of the day: 'There is no problem that doesn't end solved by a lack of solution' - Edgar Faure (french politician)
TrollfaceDeux
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You mean that the anti same sex marriage fucktards who are currently rioting are muslim?
Chris
Potato del Grande
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I work in a school in a town in the UK with a large Muslim (Pakistan) populaton, the kids seem pretty normal. I live near the Muslim part of the city and it's pretty famous as where you go to get a Curry. We also have had a few Police Officers killed/wounded in recent years and all by mentally ill white people with a gun.
So I would be wary of generalising everyone, seems like integration is the key and it hasn't happened everywhere and it isn't limited to immigrants. We need to "attack" these ghettos by having some reason for people to travel out of them, into them or through them so that people mix - lock down immigration to "do you have a reason to come here and where will you work?" - and have more support/treatment for lonley/isolated/angry people so they don't go insane.
Invading countries just gives crazy people a focus for their anger.
So I would be wary of generalising everyone, seems like integration is the key and it hasn't happened everywhere and it isn't limited to immigrants. We need to "attack" these ghettos by having some reason for people to travel out of them, into them or through them so that people mix - lock down immigration to "do you have a reason to come here and where will you work?" - and have more support/treatment for lonley/isolated/angry people so they don't go insane.
Invading countries just gives crazy people a focus for their anger.
TrollfaceDeux
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Quineloe
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Wrong, there are millions already with citizenship of European countries. You can't deport them to their home countries because those home countries are UK, France, Germany, Netherlands and so on.
So when you say that, doesn't it make perfect sense for them to make you think your friends, family or yourself might become their target?TheBeagle_sl said:
Today's events in the US are showing the very opposite. The country with one of the highest standards of living is also going further and further away from secularism. Or is your level of education turning to shit so much faster that it offsets these benefits?
I'm from Sweden, not from the US. But yes, while the US is not nearly as secular as Europe, it is certainly more secular than we were a couple of centuries ago. I don't think it's a coincidence that the most of the highly developed countries are vastly more secular now than they used to be in the past.
fanaskin
Well known agitator
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Culture as a weapon. " We will outbreed you with the bellies of our women?
http://sheikyermami.com/2009/08/08/w...orming-europe/
Britain and the rest of the European Union are ignoring a demographic time bomb: a recent rush into the EU by migrants, including millions of Muslims, will change the continent beyond recognition over the next two decades, and almost no policy-makers are talking about it.The numbers are startling. Only 3.2 per cent of Spain?s population was foreign-born in 1998. In 2007 it was 13.4 per cent. Europe?s Muslim population has more than doubled in the past 30 years and will have doubled again by 2015. In Brussels, the top seven baby boys? names recently were Mohamed, Adam, Rayan, Ayoub, Mehdi, Amine and Hamza.
Europe?s low white birth rate, coupled with faster multiplying migrants, will change fundamentally what we take to mean by European culture and society. The altered population mix has far-reaching implications for education, housing, welfare, labour, the arts and everything in between. It could have a critical impact on foreign policy: a study was submitted to the US Air Force on how America?s relationship with Europe might evolve.
http://www.billionbibles.org/sharia/sharia-europe.html
In France, home to 13 million Muslims, the government no longer controls the banlieus (right, below is Venice, Italy), the densely-populated, predominantly Muslim ghettos that encircle most major French cities and where the French police seldom patrol. If that changed, the Muslim population among France's prison inmates would rise even higher than the present 70%. All meat sold in Paris is now halal,
In Denmark, Muslims are calling for areas with large Muslim populations like Copenhagen's Tingbjerg to become Sharia law zones patrolled by Muslim religious police modeled after Saudi Arabia's muttawa to catch and punish all Sharia law violators.
Such Muslim police already exists in Spain, where Sharia courts now threaten women for driving cars or working outside the home. Recently, a woman accused of adultery was sentenced to death by a Sharia court and escaped it by seeking refuge in a police station.
In Holland, where "Muhammad" is now the most common name for boys born in its four largest cities (Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague, Utrecht), death sentences against Sharia law-breakers actually have been carried out. High profile victims include Pim Fortuyn and Theo van Gogh, both killed for criticizing the religion of peace.
http://sheikyermami.com/2009/08/08/w...orming-europe/
Britain and the rest of the European Union are ignoring a demographic time bomb: a recent rush into the EU by migrants, including millions of Muslims, will change the continent beyond recognition over the next two decades, and almost no policy-makers are talking about it.The numbers are startling. Only 3.2 per cent of Spain?s population was foreign-born in 1998. In 2007 it was 13.4 per cent. Europe?s Muslim population has more than doubled in the past 30 years and will have doubled again by 2015. In Brussels, the top seven baby boys? names recently were Mohamed, Adam, Rayan, Ayoub, Mehdi, Amine and Hamza.
Europe?s low white birth rate, coupled with faster multiplying migrants, will change fundamentally what we take to mean by European culture and society. The altered population mix has far-reaching implications for education, housing, welfare, labour, the arts and everything in between. It could have a critical impact on foreign policy: a study was submitted to the US Air Force on how America?s relationship with Europe might evolve.
http://www.billionbibles.org/sharia/sharia-europe.html
In France, home to 13 million Muslims, the government no longer controls the banlieus (right, below is Venice, Italy), the densely-populated, predominantly Muslim ghettos that encircle most major French cities and where the French police seldom patrol. If that changed, the Muslim population among France's prison inmates would rise even higher than the present 70%. All meat sold in Paris is now halal,
In Denmark, Muslims are calling for areas with large Muslim populations like Copenhagen's Tingbjerg to become Sharia law zones patrolled by Muslim religious police modeled after Saudi Arabia's muttawa to catch and punish all Sharia law violators.
Such Muslim police already exists in Spain, where Sharia courts now threaten women for driving cars or working outside the home. Recently, a woman accused of adultery was sentenced to death by a Sharia court and escaped it by seeking refuge in a police station.
In Holland, where "Muhammad" is now the most common name for boys born in its four largest cities (Amsterdam, Rotterdam, The Hague, Utrecht), death sentences against Sharia law-breakers actually have been carried out. High profile victims include Pim Fortuyn and Theo van Gogh, both killed for criticizing the religion of peace.