black islamist beheads British soldier in London

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Vatoreus Malfost_sl

shitlord
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1
I'm just of the opinion that we've been using violence as a means of achieving fucking nothing in the Middle East. We aren't fixing it, so why keep dumping trillions of dollars into it when all the West has seen from it is a further expansion of violence toward us. Our economies are in the shitter, global terrorism is up, this shit is happening, hundreds of thousands of soldiers return from battle with heavy psychological scarring, and millions of innocent lives are lost in those nations.

Where is the benefit, except in the pockets of billionaires, to our continued actions in the Middle East?
 
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Asherah

Silver Knight of the Realm
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Vatoreus Malfost_sl said:
Nor would I, but writing angry people off that happen to be religious as crazy maniacs, kind of seems disingenuous. Everything a person has to say can't be written off as loony because one part of what he's saying involves a swear to a god. He wasn't speaking of jihad, he wasn't raving. He was evenly stating that people who live in predominately muslim nations face this level of violence on a daily basis, and that a lot of it is influenced by Western dealings in those nations. Is that false because he believes in his god? I see everyday American politicians thanking god and swearing to god and in god we trust this, etc. Should we abandon everything these people have to say and write it off immediately? They vote and influence more death in the past 10 years than the Islamic jihad has (drug war/war on terror).
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I mostly agree. The main reason for most of the terrorism today is not religion in itself. The west has done a lot of bad things to some of these people. It is not very surprising that some people feel the need to strike back. Since they don't have the military resources required to do this, terrorism is the obvious form of attack. On the other hand, it's obviously a lot easier to find people willing to go on suicide missions if they think they will be rewarded in the afterlife. My main concern with Islam is that it is growing very quickly in many European countries and might become a real political powerhouse in the not so distant future (perhaps 20 years from now).
 
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Vatoreus Malfost_sl

shitlord
228
1
Shouldn't the answer be to actually listen and attempt to reason with these groups. Find common ground, debate tactics. I understand that there are fanatical members of the religion, but look at the US for a fanatical Christian nation. Find a way to co-exist rather than call for the genocide of a people. We don't need Holocaust Part 2: Mohammed's Gonna Get It

We should be demanding our nations take from them the political power they seek to bank on by removing ourselves from the situation there. It gains us absolutely nothing but ire and debt.
 
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Fazana_sl

shitlord
1,071
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Let's be honest here, the full pull-out of the west from that part of the world will be when the black gold runs out...
 
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Vatoreus Malfost_sl

shitlord
228
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Fazana_sl said:
Let's be honest here, the full pull-out of the west from that part of the world will be when the black gold runs out...
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So are you ok with the idea of being involved in the mass murders associated with the acquisition of those goods? Tax revenue gained from citizens pays for it. Are we any better than the German citizens when the Jewish community was scapegoated for political purposes?
 
TheBeagle

TheBeagle

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Vatoreus Malfost_sl said:
Shouldn't the answer be to actually listen and attempt to reason with these groups. Find common ground, debate tactics. I understand that there are fanatical members of the religion, but look at the US for a fanatical Christian nation. Find a way to co-exist rather than call for the genocide of a people. We don't need Holocaust Part 2: Mohammed's Gonna Get It

We should be demanding our nations take from them the political power they seek to bank on by removing ourselves from the situation there. It gains us absolutely nothing but ire and debt.
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I don't know man, singing kumbaya with these motherfuckers isn't going to get us anywhere, just look at how they treat their women and themselves. I value my own life, the lives of my family and friends, and the way of life we have more than i value their lives and their fucked up customs, its really that simple.

I agree that the first step is just getting the fuck out altogether and let them stew in their own shit, but I'm also coming around to the idea that their should be no place for Islam in the Western world. Fuck em.
 
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Mikhail Bakunin_sl

shitlord
2,199
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Asherah_sl said:
Mixing religion and politics rarely ends well. Fortunately, Christianity has very little political power in most western countries these days. Islam on the other hand seems to be at a point where it is much more likely to get mixed up in politics. I for one have no desire to replace our Christian overlords of the past with our Muslim masters of the future.
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It's not mixed by accident. The people of the middle east, wholly irrespective of their religion, are absolutely justified in wanting the west (and in particular the US and Britain) wiped off the face of the earth. To claim otherwise represents aprofoundignorance of the history of the region and our involvement in it. A major source of their hatred is the way their public institutions have been corrupted, subverted, or outright destroyed by us. Islam is one of the few things that remains uniquely theirs. It represents a locus of identity and organization that gives them a way to fight back. It's not like a fucking shock that their only mode of resistance has this level of dedication. It's basically the only thing they have left to invest any self-worth in. We've taken everything else away from them. The idea that their zealotry is a causal factor here rather than just an effect is just completely backwards and asinine.
 
TheBeagle

TheBeagle

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Mikhail Bakunin_sl said:
It's not mixed by accident. The people of the middle east, wholly irrespective of their religion, are absolutely justified in wanting the west (and in particular the US and Britain) wiped off the face of the earth. To claim otherwise represents aprofoundignorance of the history of the region and our involvement in it. A major source of their hatred is the way their public institutions have been corrupted, subverted, or outright destroyed by us. Islam is one of the few things that remains uniquely theirs. It represents a locus of identity and organization that gives them a way to fight back. It's not like a fucking shock that their only mode of resistance has this level of dedication. It's basically the only thing they have left to invest any self-worth in. We've taken everything else away from them. The idea that their zealotry is a causal factor here rather than just an effect is just completely backwards and asinine.
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When a bunch of goatherders stone to death a woman because she was gang raped, that has fuck all to do with western imperialism.
 
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Vatoreus Malfost_sl

shitlord
228
1
TheBeagle_sl said:
I don't know man, singing kumbaya with these motherfuckers isn't going to get us anywhere, just look at how they treat their women and themselves. I value my own life, the lives of my family and friends, and the way of life we have more than i value their lives and their fucked up customs, its really that simple.

I agree that the first step is just getting the fuck out altogether and let them stew in their own shit, but I'm also coming around to the idea that their should be no place for Islam in the Western world. Fuck em.
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So genocide is cool?
 
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Fazana_sl

shitlord
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Edit: nm, moving faaaar away from the OP.

The "spokesman" is apparently a Briton of Nigerian ancestry who was brought up in a christian household but converted to Islam after he left college in 2003. Presumably he now believes himself to be Afghani after saying "Our women have to witness this every day" ?!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22636624
 
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Mikhail Bakunin_sl

shitlord
2,199
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TheBeagle_sl said:
When a bunch of goatherders stone to death a woman because she was gang raped, that has fuck all to do with western imperialism.
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You're assuming that counter-factual world where that western imperialism didn't happen that they'd still be zealots (and I guess still a bunch of goatherders, for that matter). There's no reason to believe that's true (and, in fact, good reasons to believe that itisn'ttrue).
 
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Vatoreus Malfost_sl

shitlord
228
1
TheBeagle_sl said:
When a bunch of goatherders stone to death a woman because she was gang raped, that has fuck all to do with western imperialism.
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In regards to this, the Iran that existed before the 1950s was not what Iran is today. It was not violent toward women, they had a democratically elected nation that just happened to not want to be controlled by the West any longer. We fucked that into the ground, violently, and then supported a military dictator instead for a couple of decades, which saw rise to the Islamic Revolution in the 1970s.

You sound like a goddamn Creationist, for real. Ignoring facts doesn't stop them from being facts.
 
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Mikhail Bakunin_sl

shitlord
2,199
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Vatoreus Malfost_sl said:
In regards to this, the Iran that existed before the 1950s was not what Iran is today. It was not violent toward women, they had a democratically elected nation that just happened to not want to be controlled by the West any longer. We fucked that into the ground, violently, and then supported a military dictator instead for a couple of decades, which saw rise to the Islamic Revolution in the 1970s.
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Afghanistan is a pretty similar situation (although the Soviets sharesomeof the blame there).
 
Tummysticks

Tummysticks

Lord Nagafen Raider
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Vatoreus Malfost_sl said:
In regards to this, the Iran that existed before the 1950s was not what Iran is today. It was not violent toward women, they had a democratically elected nation that just happened to not want to be controlled by the West any longer. We fucked that into the ground, violently, and then supported a military dictator instead for a couple of decades, which saw rise to the Islamic Revolution in the 1970s.

You sound like a goddamn Creationist, for real. Ignoring facts doesn't stop them from being facts.
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What the fuck man! 1950's Iran was THE most westernized country in the Middle East. The stoning of women fell to the wayside in favor of a more progressive mindset. Enter la revolucion and they went right back to it. Have a care what you accuse others of sounding like, oh confuser of facts.

Left to their own devices and absent any outside influence, Muslims are far more likely to kill themselves than any other group of people on the planet.
 
TheBeagle

TheBeagle

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Mikhail Bakunin_sl said:
You're assuming that counter-factual world where that western imperialism didn't happen that they'd still be zealots (and I guess still a bunch of goatherders, for that matter). There's no reason to believe that's true (and, in fact, good reasons to believe that itisn'ttrue).
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This line of reasoning supposes that islamic zealotry didn't exist before western imperialism. Pretty sure that's false.
 
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Mikhail Bakunin_sl

shitlord
2,199
1
TheBeagle_sl said:
This line of reasoning supposes that islamic zealotry didn't exist before western imperialism. Pretty sure that's false.
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There are clear examples where that's absolutely true. Moreover, all I have to suppose is that zealotry typically doesn't survive the forces of modernization without some kind of scaffolding.
 
A

Asherah

Silver Knight of the Realm
287
38
Vatoreus Malfost_sl said:
Find a way to co-exist rather than call for the genocide of a people. We don't need Holocaust Part 2: Mohammed's Gonna Get It
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Outside of message board tough talk I doubt many actually consider this an alternative. It's pretty clear that there isn't a realistic military solution to the problem. Clearly, we will eventually have to learn to co-exist.
 
spronk

spronk

FPS noob
22,623
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cool set of photos from egypt this week, that country has so much potential that is just being wasted away:
http://www.businessinsider.com/the-m...pt-2013-5?op=1

I just can't really wrap my head around the fact that whoever we elect in the West, they may fuck things up but things still kinda run. in the Mideast though, the two options always seem to be a crazy dictator who oppresses his people or a Muslim theocracy that turns everything into the Middle Ages.
 
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