Breaking Bad

khorum said:

Then you read into that incompletely. As far as his defining failures went, Walt was a frustrated genius entrepreneur FIRST, loong before he was a failed husband, or a failed father and ultimately a failed teacher.

By the time we meet Walt he was already on the downward trajectory of a life that could've been that of a billionaire entrepreneur as co-founder of Gray Matter Technologies, which had used his research in Cal Tech to become a giant multinational. His former partner Elliott Schwartz and his ex-girlfriend, both of whom became billionaires on the back of Walt's work, admitted that Walt was the relentless, passionate force behind their initial success.

So a more apt comparison of Walt vs. Gus would've been what if Elon Musk or Bill Gates had made a wrong turn early in their lives and became drug dealers during their mid-life crises and took on El Chapo instead.

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Very true and obviously what made him feel like he was finally putting his brain to use. Cooking the best meth ever made, easy primer chapbook shit.

I'm referring to one guy without a network, with only one SCIENCE BITCH partner, crossing paths with actual cartels, never getting scathed, plotting like a supervillain all while operating out of a HOUSE in Albuquerque. No drug dealer in the history of the US has ever blown up an ALF and lived to season five. Good TV shit but c'mon. TV bullshit nonetheless.

Feanor said:

Very true and obviously what made him feel like he was finally putting his brain to use. Cooking the best meth ever made, easy primer chapbook shit.

I'm referring to one guy without a network, with only one SCIENCE BITCH partner, crossing paths with actual cartels, never getting scathed, plotting like a supervillain all while operating out of a HOUSE in Albuquerque. No drug dealer in the history of the US has ever blown up an ALF and lived to season five. Good TV shit but c'mon. TV bullshit nonetheless.

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This is how I'd look at it too, but you have to factor in that Walt's meth was a purity unheard of to anyone. No drug dealer in their right mind would kill him, but to an earlier point him not being enslaved by someone was TV magic. I'm sure that his Heisenberg facade would not have lasted very long, been tracked down and kidnapped pretty quickly into things.

They did try to enslave him. He was kidnapped. They also tried to force him to teach their own chemists how to make it as pure as he did.

Lanx said:

pretty sure he made the revenge auto sentry with zero knowledge of jesse being there. They just happened to take Jesse out and parade him around like a doggie, and Walt was just like "oh we'll i'll save this asshole one last time"

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Gilligan mentioned in interviews at the time BB ended that Walt went to the nazi's to kill Jesse, he thought he was working with them to make "his" blue meth after learning it still exists from Badger/Pete. He only saved Jesse when he realized he was a hostage and not willing partner. They had debated a few endings including Jesse killing Walt, Walt killing Jesse, etc but decided on what we saw as the fan service version.

chaos said:

Walt manipulated Jesse over and over to keep him in the subservient "mentee" position. Walt drew both of them further and further down this rabbit hole of degeneracy and greed, in the end not even because of any real need just because of his own hubris. . Jesse wasnt in a great place to begin with, and each action took its toll on him. He acted out at times, acted rashly, I dont think that's unrealistic or even uncalled for. Walt, on the other hand, is kind of a sociopath. He completely blew his life up because he was too proud to ask for help, too entitled to accept his life as is. He ruined the lives of countless people, including his own children. And I'd argue theres a reading of that ending that he never really grew past that, he died mired in that shit even if he did one redeeming thing in saving Jesse. It isnt as if this could have been a story about a couple of successful upstarts if Jesse had just sucked it up and worked with the white supremacists and Walt, or if Jesse had just kept his head down in Gus' lab and done his 8 hours a day. The things they were doing were horrible, they were horrible people.

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At no point though was Jesse where he was because of evil Walt. Jesse was in the meth business because Jesse was a drug dealer, before he met Walt. Jesse was involved with the cartel because he was selling the Cartel meth, BEFORE Walt. In Season 2/3 Walt broke it off with Jesse and was cooking with Gale, Jesse threatened Walt and Walt's family, forcing himself back into the business because felt entitled to half of it (Despite Walt trying to stop him). Once back in, Jesse STOLE Meth despite making MILLIONS a year and the amount he stole to sell was a pittance in comparison, he literally stole it because he felt entitled to more, because he felt like his cut wasn't big enough--so he wanted to 'stick it' to Gus. He then sold that Meth in an opposing crew's territory, and when they warned him, he FORCED his friend Combo to continue selling it and the dude was killed for it because Jesse had no plan on how to actually keep his friend safe but was too god damn prideful to give up selling the Meth. (Literally everything you accuse Walt of, Jesse did in this arc--his pride and entitlement lead him to getting his friends and a child killed, and forcing Walt into a fight for his life. For nothing but Jesse's hubris, because Jesse felt his millions of dollars wasn't enough)

Walt rescues Jesse and sacrifices his own stability to do so. He gets himself into a "cold war" with Gus. And as Walt tries to strategize to fight Gus, Jesse swaps sides. Why? Because Walt was treating him like a peer, he was frank and honest with Jesse about how Gus was trying to manipulate him. (Pointing out the robbery was staged ect), meanwhile, Gus was saying nice things! And so, Despite Gus having literally ordered the death of a child that Jesse supposedly was angry enough to go to war over, Jesse decides to take Gus's side and abandons the man who risked everything to save him. (Because Jesse is a piece of shit that gravitates toward whoever blows smoke up his ass and makes him feel competent)

He "acted out", come on man, the dude was a fucking dirt bag. A real piece of shit. He was also a massive sociopath that used people around him, except unlike Walt, he sniveled and begged for sympathy as a method of manipulation, he played the victim whenever his stupidity led him into a trap of his own making. Watching his "poor me" routine at the end of the series was disgusting. At least Walt, for all of him being a "sociopath", he owned up to what he did. He accepted his punishment and the judgement of others and tried to make it as right as he could, he knew he deserved to die. Jesse though? No, he acted like a victim. All of his malicious, and manipulative behavior wasn't owned up to at all. He 'erased' it all by acting like he had no agency in anything despite the worst tragedies of the series happening because he instigated them. (Literally except for Season 5, every other bad thing was the result of Jesse being an asshole).

Lithose said:

At no point though was Jesse where he was because of evil Walt. Jesse was in the meth business because Jesse was a drug dealer, before he met Walt. Jesse was involved with the cartel because he was selling the Cartel meth, BEFORE Walt. In Season 2/3 Walt broke it off with Jesse and was cooking with Gale, Jesse threatened Walt and Walt's family, forcing himself back into the business because felt entitled to half of it (Despite Walt trying to stop him). Once back in, Jesse STOLE Meth despite making MILLIONS a year and the amount he stole to sell was a pittance in comparison, he literally stole it because he felt entitled to more, because he felt like his cut wasn't big enough--so he wanted to 'stick it' to Gus. He then sold that Meth in an opposing crew's territory, and when they warned him, he FORCED his friend Combo to continue selling it and the dude was killed for it because Jesse had no plan on how to actually keep his friend safe but was too god damn prideful to give up selling the Meth. (Literally everything you accuse Walt of, Jesse did in this arc--his pride and entitlement lead him to getting his friends and a child killed, and forcing Walt into a fight for his life. For nothing but Jesse's hubris, because Jesse felt his millions of dollars wasn't enough)

Walt rescues Jesse and sacrifices his own stability to do so. He gets himself into a "cold war" with Gus. And as Walt tries to strategize to fight Gus, Jesse swaps sides. Why? Because Walt was treating him like a peer, he was frank and honest with Jesse about how Gus was trying to manipulate him. (Pointing out the robbery was staged ect), meanwhile, Gus was saying nice things! And so, Despite Gus having literally ordered the death of a child that Jesse supposedly was angry enough to go to war over, Jesse decides to take Gus's side and abandons the man who risked everything to save him. (Because Jesse is a piece of shit that gravitates toward whoever blows smoke up his ass and makes him feel competent)

He "acted out", come on man, the dude was a fucking dirt bag. A real piece of shit. He was also a massive sociopath that used people around him, except unlike Walt, he sniveled and begged for sympathy as a method of manipulation, he played the victim whenever his stupidity led him into a trap of his own making. Watching his "poor me" routine at the end of the series was disgusting. At least Walt, for all of him being a "sociopath", he owned up to what he did. He accepted his punishment and the judgement of others and tried to make it as right as he could, he knew he deserved to die. Jesse though? No, he acted like a victim. All of his malicious, and manipulative behavior wasn't owned up to at all. He 'erased' it all by acting like he had no agency in anything despite the worst tragedies of the series happening because he instigated them. (Literally except for Season 5, every other bad thing was the result of Jesse being an asshole).

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I dont think you understand Jesse's motivations very well. He was obsessed with this outlaw lifestyle/mentality. He clearly has mental health issues throughout. He didnt steal from Gus because he wanted money, he stole from Gus because he descended into nihilism following the death of his girlfriend. Combo's death was the thing that finally brought home the reality of it all to him, and from there his main drivers were that experience and the fallout as well as his relationship with Walt.

Jesse isnt a great person, he had flaws from the jump and didnt handle the life very well. But you're kind of whitewashing Walt here, and painting his ability to work within this cartel framework as a good trait rather than a marker of just how up his own ass he really is. Walt is just as much a piece of shit as Jesse, maybe more so given the position he put his family in.

His "poor me" moment came after he was abandoned by his father figure, second girlfriend murdered, and he was enslaved, tortured, and starved in a fucking open air pit for more than a year.

Walt never owned up to what he did, either, not really. His last acts were to blackmail his former friend and lover and murder a bunch of people who wronged him.

Feanor said:

Nobody understands Walter White except Vince Gilligan. When he got cancer he became a desperate loser of a man because he was angry. He thought of himself as a victim. He could have done the right thing but made the wrong decision at every turn.

During/after Ozymandias he realized it, no longer able to save his family, having failed them beyond repair, and resolved to save the last person he could. His high school student, his first victim.

None of that is badass and it's easier to think of him as cool like Scarface. Walter White is the epitome of uncool. A failure as a man and a terrible father and teacher.

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About this too. The only thing that annoys me about Gilligan's writing, is the guy writs extremely manipulatively and then pretends like people are 'wrong' for noticing. You mentioned it about crime, but the entire world of Breaking Bad is absolutely, 100% absurd. We have a Nobel prize winning chemist, who was one of the founding members that created an IP which made BILLIONS. In addition, the dude was a hard worker, he worked two jobs, and was extremely responsible and meticulous. And the dude was teaching High School Chemistry? lol...Not even like an elite private academy or a high school in a high pay area either.

In the real world, pharmaceutical and chemical companies would have been knocking down this dudes door to employ him for six figures easily, with perks a mile long. His health insurance would have allowed him to get hand jobs in the hospital if he wanted. But instead, we saw a man who had to be humiliated by an asshole at a gas station because he was so poor, despite his brilliance and hard work. A society like that almost deserves to be burnt down. Nothing about Walt being angry made him a loser. A society like that is toxic, its a dying society that inspires "outlaws" because of its inherent, a disturbing unfairness. And Gilligan of course did this on purpose even though it was ridiculous. Because he wanted to manipulate us into sympathizing with Walt, he wanted us to feel like this society was the epitome of corrupt, and Walt deserved to tell those who guard its rules to 'fuck off'. Its what made it so satisfying when he did.

But then in Season 5, its like Gilligan wants us to forget how absurd and ridiculously terrible this society is and treat it like its our current world, and judge Walt now from a "regular" perspective. As said, really manipulative writing, and from interviews he tries to pretend like this is not the case. (And manipulative here doesn't mean bad, though his commentary is often disingenuous because of it--but I tend to think authors should shut up about their own work, they aren't in any better of a position to analyze it than anyone else who has read it.)

[Sincere appologies for the off-topic post]

Lithose of all fucking morning THIS is where you choose to start your day???? Get your ass over to Politics NOW.

chaos said:

I dont think you understand Jesse's motivations very well. He was obsessed with this outlaw lifestyle/mentality. He clearly has mental health issues throughout. He didnt steal from Gus because he wanted money, he stole from Gus because he descended into nihilism following the death of his girlfriend. Combo's death was the thing that finally brought home the reality of it all to him, and from there his main drivers were that experience and the fallout as well as his relationship with Walt

Jesse isnt a great person, he had flaws from the jump and didnt handle the life very well. But you're kind of whitewashing Walt here, and painting his ability to work within this cartel framework as a good trait rather than a marker of just how up his own ass he really is. Walt is just as much a piece of shit as Jesse, maybe more so given the position he put his family in.

His "poor me" moment came after he was abandoned by his father figure, second girlfriend murdered, and he was enslaved, tortured, and starved in a fucking open air pit for more than a year.

Walt never owned up to what he did, either, not really. His last acts were to blackmail his former friend and lover and murder a bunch of people who wronged him.

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Oh, I'm not defending Walt, Walt's terrible in his own way. Its just people see Jesse as the victim. He's not. Jesse is a piece of shit that manipulates people in a different way, by painting himself as the victim. I have zero tolerance for that. I hate when people take actions, and then when the consequences come up they try to pawn their agency off onto others. To me, that behavior is so much worse than people like Walt who just accept they are a bad guy.

And Walt did just that, he accepted he was a bad man and took the consequences for it. He went into a situation where he knew he would die, to fight his biggest mistake. He wasn't redeemed by this but he accepted the consequences of what he'd done and took them on the chin without trying to deny it; from the loss of his family, the loss of his empire, the loss of his life. In the end, he was true to his character--right down to the method of his 'evil', which was controlled and calculating (Which is why he had to kill the white supremacists, because they damaged things indiscriminately, without purpose or thought, the opposite of the calculated killer Walt was, who only hurt people to further a goal). Which is why I look at him keeping his head down to work for the cartel as a good quality--because if you're going to be a bad guy, at least be the lawful evil kind that can still generate some good even if its in a bad way, no one likes chaotic evil shit bags, they only sew chaos.

Did Jesse do that? Or was Jesse's final act looking at Walt like he was a monster, while pretending like he himself was only in his current situation because of Walt? At no point did Jesse deal with the fact that he was also a bad person. He got people killed, he killed people to get his way. He worked with child murderers, and even betrayed his friend to work for them, then was a hypocrite when the child was closer to him. That said, I don't think Jesse is a bad character, I enjoy disliking him--if that makes sense. But he's like the outlaw version of Jerry from Rick and Morty. He's a piece of shit but he acts so pathetic and he just fucks up so often that he's able to camouflage himself.

Lithose said:

Oh, I'm not defending Walt, Walt's terrible in his own way. Its just people see Jesse as the victim. He's not. Jesse is a piece of shit that manipulates people in a different way, by painting himself as the victim. I have zero tolerance for that. I hate when people take actions, and then when the consequences come up they try to pawn their agency off onto others. To me, that behavior is so much worse than people like Walt who just accept they are a bad guy.

And Walt did just that, he accepted he was a bad man and took the consequences for it. He went into a situation where he knew he would die, to fight his biggest mistake. He wasn't redeemed by this but he accepted the consequences of what he'd done and took them on the chin without trying to deny it; from the loss of his family, the loss of his empire, the loss of his life. In the end, he was true to his character--right down to the method of his 'evil', which was controlled and calculating (Which is why he had to kill the white supremacists, because they damaged things indiscriminately, without purpose or thought, the opposite of the calculated killer Walt was, who only hurt people to further a goal). Which is why I look at him keeping his head down to work for the cartel as a good quality--because if you're going to be a bad guy, at least be the lawful evil kind that can still generate some good even if its in a bad way, no one likes chaotic evil shit bags, they only sew chaos.

Did Jesse do that? Or was Jesse's final act looking at Walt like he was a monster, while pretending like he himself was only in his current situation because of Walt? At no point did Jesse deal with the fact that he was also a bad person. He got people killed, he killed people to get his way. He worked with child murderers, and even betrayed his friend to work for them, then was a hypocrite when the child was closer to him. That said, I don't think Jesse is a bad character, I enjoy disliking him--if that makes sense. But he's like the outlaw version of Jerry from Rick and Morty. He's a piece of shit but he acts so pathetic and he just fucks up so often that he's able to camouflage himself.

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They're both agents of chaos. i mean, Walt topples a drug cartel, floods the streets with extremely potent drugs, and empowers a white supremacist criminal syndicate with a multi million (billion?) dollar industry. He spent most of the series lying to anyone and everyone, some of the lies he told were just so laughably bad and unnecessary too. All those things you listed off, Walt did them too. He worked with murderers and child murderers,he poisoned a child, he blew up a nursing home, he betrayed people, etc. They both do horrific things.

There's room for Jesse to be both a victim and for him to be a piece of shit. Walt has a victim complex too, which he revisits often. Assume Walt's take on his victimhood is right, even then, there's room for him to be both a victim and a huge asshole who makes terrible mistakes that fucks up everyone's life around him.

idk, I think we seem to mostly agree on the show, I just see Jesse through a bit of a different lens. I think the commonality between Jesse and Walt is that we want them to turn the corner, even though they're both involved in terrible things, and generally act like horrible people. But every time that turn is within sight they fuck it up. Walt through his own ego, Jesse through his self-loathing, amongst other things for each. A theme they visited often in the show is that there is redemption, if I had to guess I'd think that's what the movie will focus on.

Lanx said:

and yet if you asked Walt for realz

he'd rather have Jessie as a son than his derpie traitor of a kid

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At some point I'm going to have to give the series another run through. One of the themes that other people picked up on right away is the difference between the lessons Walt teaches his real son juxtoposed by the lessons we he's teaching his proxy son - often in the same episode. I also, at the time, saw Jessie as the tragic figure of the story. He's just some dildo that got in way over his head that never would have gone anywhere or did anything significant without Walt dragging him by the ear.

But I've only watched each episode a single time as it was airing.

Always found Jesse to be a whiney cunt after season 1.

I hated Walt for killing Mike, but I will always hate Skylar and Jesse more because of the overall bitchy problems they brought with them.

MusicForFish said:

That first season sure picked up. Starting S2.

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You ain't seen nothin yet bro.

Jessie should have been the evil one and killed Skylar in episode 3.