Butthurt white guys, an Asian virgin and an angry lesbian walk into a bar...

Jive Turkey · May 20, 2015

Mist_sl said:
No, rape is a thing that happens to women. It also happens to men. One of those previous "1-in-5" studies with the ridiculously wide definitions of rape was replicated with the same definitions and found 1 in 6 college men were raped.

it wasn't replicated, it was part of the exact same study. They found 1 in 7 men were raped. Even then, they narrowed down what was considered rape for a man to penetration, so with the loose definitions used for women, they surely would've come to something closer to 1 in 5. I have no idea how they're arriving at these numbers

Cad · May 20, 2015

Mist_sl said:
Hey, tons of US military gear says "This end towards enemy" on it.

But no, I disagree. 18 year old (especially white) girls are ridiculously sheltered and naive, now more than ever due to being spoiled and their face stuck in their phones their entire childhood. They see a party, ON CAMPUS, run by a student organization that is sanctioned BY THE SCHOOL, and assume that it is reasonably safe. Yes, that is a VERY stupid thing to assume, but schools aren't educating these girls as to the dangers, instead focusing on 'teaching boys not to rape' which is NOT WORKING OUT WELL. Schools need to be doing both, AND reviewing what kind of student organizations they want to implicitly endorse.

I mean, lets take a step back for a second.

If they go to a frat party with 22-24 year old guys, and they are 18, probably never drank alcohol before this year, never been out on their own so they are feeling experimental and ready to face the world, go to a party, get half drunk, have no idea how to handle themselves, and a guy who has done this to 40 other 18 year old drunk fish before puts a move on her that she doesn't know how to say no to and some regrettable sex, that is not rape. And that is what is happening 99% of the time. The guys are probably aggressive, much more so than they are used to, they are a little drunk and they don't know how to talk their way out of this situation. That is not rape. That is a girl in over her head and not knowing how to handle herself.

It's like when a guy goes by himself to a strip club for the first time (bad idea) and some aggressive gorgeous stripper fleeces him for every dollar on his person because he's never had a woman treat him that way and has no idea how to say no to her. The stripper did not rape his wallet.

And the frat boy in my scenario did not rape the girl. She was in a high pressure situation yes, but I find it unlikely that in most cases they are violently raped or threatened with violence.

In those cases where they actually are violent with the girls, or use roofies, or other dumb shit like that, yes I could get behind the death penalty for that type of shit. But I guarantee you thats not what is going on 99.99% of the time. Yes I have been to frat parties. Have you?

Cad · May 20, 2015

Mist_sl said:
I train tutors. The first thing I tell them is to assume the students they are helping learned absolutely nothing after the 6th grade and somehow got themselves to college anyway. The tutors generally inform me that was the correct approach.

A whole lot of students on college campuses these days areholy fucking shit-level stupid. Their parents and high school teachers bred a generation of useless know-nothings the likes of which has never been seen in the history of man.

How lucky they are to have a genius like you to help them out!

How fucking old are you anyway, acting like "these new kids are stupider than ever!" ??

Every generation ever has said the generation following them are the dumbest ever, meanwhile society is more advanced than ever.

Mist · May 20, 2015

Cad_sl said:
If they go to a frat party with 22-24 year old guys, and they are 18, probably never drank alcohol before this year, never been out on their own so they are feeling experimental and ready to face the world, go to a party, get half drunk, have no idea how to handle themselves, and a guy who has done this to 40 other 18 year old drunk fish before puts a move on her that she doesn't know how to say no to and some regrettable sex, that is not rape. And that is what is happening 99% of the time. The guys are probably aggressive, much more so than they are used to, they are a little drunk and they don't know how to talk their way out of this situation. That is not rape. That is a girl in over her head and not knowing how to handle herself.

Okay, I'm not really disagreeing with that, though, depending on the specific level of inebriation, I think we can have a discussion on whether that is rape or not.

That said, do you think this scenario you described is healthy behavior that schools should be implicitly endorsing by allowing these fraternities and their parties on campus? If everyone knows this is the behavior that happens at frat parties, why are schools allowing it? Don't they have some ethical, if not necessarily legal, liability to discourage this kind of environment from existing on their campus?

AladainAF · May 20, 2015

Mist_sl said:
Frat houses should just be required to hand out rape waivers at the door during parties. If you don't consent to being potentially raped they should have to turn you away.

I'd be really interested in seeing how many sign anyway.

Do you realize how much damage people like you are doing to the women who say... get completely drunk and and make a bad decision and spread their legs to the first cock that wants to enter versus a woman who simply attends and is coerced into a room and held down against their will while saying "no" the entire time, and had their pants pulled off and raped?

Would that "rape waiver" cover both of those scenarios? Because in my world, only one of those situation is an actual rape. In fact, I can't even describe the second scenario without actually using the word rape.

Mist · May 20, 2015

Cad_sl said:
How lucky they are to have a genius like you to help them out!

How fucking old are you anyway, acting like "these new kids are stupider than ever!" ??

Every generation ever has said the generation following them are the dumbest ever, meanwhile society is more advanced than ever.

This is a whole new level. I just read a study that shatters the whole meme that millennials are more tech savvy than the generation before them, to make up for the fact that they know nothing about anything else. It turned out that they actually had LESS tech skills.

U.S. millennials post 'abysmal' scores in tech skills test, lag behind foreign peers - The Washington Post

Mist · May 20, 2015

AladainAF_sl said:
Do you realize how much damage people like you are doing to the women who say... get completely drunk and and make a bad decision and spread their legs to the first cock that wants to enter versus a woman who simply attends and is coerced into a room and held down against their will while saying "no" the entire time, and had their pants pulled off and raped?

Would that "rape waiver" cover both of those scenarios? Because in my world, only one of those situation is an actual rape. In fact, I can't even describe the second scenario without actually using the word rape.

How is that damaging? By forcing you to willfully acknowledge what might happen to you if you become intoxicated at a frat party, you are explicitly educating the potential victim. If they choose to sign their rights away with that knowledge, that is their prerogative.

AladainAF · May 20, 2015

Ok, so what if they claim that they were actually coerced into signing the form before entry? What you're advocating is absolutely so far out there that my mind is almost incapable of wrapping my head around it.

Edit: The fact is - crazy people can say and do anything and sadly they have figured out they can do this under the guise of a very real serious problem that truly damages many people and as such get treated in the same manner. In the meantime, the crazy people have actually minimized the plight of the REAL rape victims. This is how it is damaging. You're basically minimizing someone who is truly and honestly raped in a brutal manner with some girl who (as Cad says) is simply over her head and has regrettable sex and uses "rape!" to avoid her own responsibility of her actions.

It's disgusting.

Cad · May 20, 2015

Mist_sl said:
That said, do you think this scenario you described is healthy behavior that schools should be implicitly endorsing by allowing these fraternities and their parties on campus? If everyone knows this is the behavior that happens at frat parties, why are schools allowing it? Don't they have some ethical, if not necessarily legal, liability to discourage this kind of environment from existing on their campus?

I think frats and sports of all kinds should not be supported by the school at all. You can make whatever dumb fucking clubs you want and you can play whatever dumb fucking sports you want to pay to play (or you can get paid to play) but I don't see why it should be involved with school. School should be 100% academics and degrees and job training. Do they give degrees in football? No? Then why the fuck do they have a football program? Do they give degrees in fraternity administration? No? Then why the fuck do you have fraternities? Let them organize off campus on their own. School shouldn't be involved.

But that has nothing to do with your question really. This sexual interaction is what adults do. They have to learn sometime. They do some regrettable things, so what. Having a dick in you is not the worst experience of your life, despite your lesbian status. You are not harmed by that dick. Get the fuck over it.

Mist · May 20, 2015

AladainAF_sl said:
Ok, so what if they claim that they were actually coerced into signing the form before entry? What you're advocating is absolutely so far out there that my mind is almost incapable of wrapping my head around it.

It wasn't meant to be serious. There's no way such a form could hold up in court. The idea was to explicitly inform potential victims what actually happens at frat parties, and the joke was seeing how many would be dumb enough to sign their rights away anyway. It's not that far off from the 'end women's suffrage petition' joke.

Would my point have come across better if I said they had to have a giant banner that says "RAPE-APOOLZA" hanging above the door?

Cad · May 20, 2015

Mist_sl said:
This is a whole new level. I just read a study that shatters the whole meme that millennials are more tech savvy than the generation before them, to make up for the fact that they know nothing about anything else. It turned out that they actually had LESS tech skills.

U.S. millennials post ??~abysmal??T scores in tech skills test, lag behind foreign peers - The Washington Post

We've been lagging behind foreign peers in one way or another since the 70's. Turns out, foreigners still want to come here. When that stops happening, I'll worry.

Mist · May 20, 2015

Cad_sl said:
But that has nothing to do with your question really. This sexual interaction is what adults do. They have to learn sometime. They do some regrettable things, so what. Having a dick in you is not the worst experience of your life, despite your lesbian status. You are not harmed by that dick. Get the fuck over it.

My point is that having regrettable drunken sex is one of the least-bad things that could to happen to you if you get drunk at a frat party. It can be alotworse, as that survey shows there's clearly quite a bit of attempted and/or completed rape FORCIBLE going on on campuses, at least on that particular campus. Even if those numbers are extreme outliers (while I suspect those numbers are high, I doubt they'rethatextreme) and double what they are on a national level, that's quite a bit more forcible rape than you guys seemed to think was happening.

Cad · May 20, 2015

Mist_sl said:
My point is that having regrettable drunken sex is one of the least-bad things that could to happen to you if you get drunk at a frat party. It can be alotworse, as that survey shows there's clearly quite a bit of attempted and/or completed rape FORCIBLE going on on campuses, at least on that particular campus. Even if those numbers are extreme outliers (while I suspect those numbers are high, I doubt they'rethatextreme) and double what they are on a national level, that's quite a bit more forcible rape than you guys seemed to think was happening.

I think if there was that much forcible rape happening, there'd be a lot more convictions. There aren't. That is a *SURVEY*. Who the fuck knows what those women think forcible rape is. Honestly. I'm taking a survey only so seriously when I think about this issue.

AladainAF · May 21, 2015

Mist_sl said:
My point is that having regrettable drunken sex is one of the least-bad things that could to happen to you if you get drunk at a frat party. It can be alotworse, as that survey shows there's clearly quite a bit of attempted and/or completed rape FORCIBLE going on on campuses, at least on that particular campus. Even if those numbers are extreme outliers (while I suspect those numbers are high, I doubt they'rethatextreme) and double what they are on a national level, that's quite a bit more forcible rape than you guys seemed to think was happening.

Drunk sex on campus: Universities are struggling to determine when intoxicated sex becomes sexual assault.

Mist · May 21, 2015

AladainAF_sl said:
Drunk sex on campus: Universities are struggling to determine when intoxicated sex becomes sexual assault.

You keep wanting to make it about drunk sex, when the study showed a high level of forcible rapenotrelated to incapacitation due to drugs or alcohol.

And you can't say we don't know what they consider forcible rape, because they specifically ask for all the different categories of behaviors and tactics thenonlyinclude attempted/completed forced penetration as attempt/completed rape.

It's got 3 PhDs signed onto it, from arguably the world's premier behavioral sciences department, and you're still arguing.

"Facts over feels, until the facts disagree with us."

Mario Speedwagon · May 21, 2015

I'm still curious what constitutes "attempted forcible rape" here. I mean, am I to believe that nearly 1/5th of the freshmen on this campus are physically fighting off their violent rapists and escaping? Or are they counting a dude that's aggressively trying to get some sex but finally relents when the girl gives a clear resounding no? Is that attempted rape?

Palum · May 21, 2015

Dr. Mario Speedwagon_sl said:
I'm still curious what constitutes "attempted forcible rape" here. I mean, am I to believe that nearly 1/5th of the freshmen on this campus are physically fighting off their violent rapists and escaping? Or are they counting a dude that's aggressively trying to get some sex but finally relents when the girl gives a clear resounding no? Is that attempted rape?

Yes, consent starts before the question is asked.

Mist · May 21, 2015

Dr. Mario Speedwagon_sl said:
I'm still curious what constitutes "attempted forcible rape" here. I mean, am I to believe that nearly 1/5th of the freshmen on this campus are physically fighting off their violent rapists and escaping? Or are they counting a dude that's aggressively trying to get some sex but finally relents when the girl gives a clear resounding no? Is that attempted rape?

I asked her specifically in an email for the definition of attempted forcible rape they used:

"try to have sexual intercourse with you (but it did not happen) when you indicated that you didn't want to? " using either tactic: threat of force or force."

Where "sexual intercourse" was defined as penetration.

So only those behaviors using either of those tactics counted as attempted forcible rape.

Palum · May 21, 2015

SO 1/5th of dudes are pussies who say stuff like "You better have sex with me or I'll fucking wreck your face!" Then she says no and gets away?

I'm confuzzled.

DickTrickle · May 21, 2015

Mist_sl said:
"Facts over feels, until the facts disagree with us."

+1. Especially here.

Butthurt white guys, an Asian virgin and an angry lesbian walk into a bar...

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