Carnival Row

Vandyn

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okay, so maybe this is an important question...

what do you consider "steampunk?"

The zeppelins are the biggest reference but I get your point, there isn't anything like robots or mechanical stuff. I guess mixing industrialized with fantasy in a victorian setting makes it feel steampunk. Like this image lends itself to steampunk.

CarnivalRow02.png
 

j00t

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The zeppelins are the biggest reference but I get your point, there isn't anything like robots or mechanical stuff. I guess mixing industrialized with fantasy in a victorian setting makes it feel steampunk. Like this image lends itself to steampunk.

View attachment 223334
Yeah, I definitely agree with that part. And several scenes had a suspended railcar track in the background, but outside of a couple of things like that, nothing was what I would call steampunk. There was no machine fantasy. I mean Zeppelins were a real thing, just not during that time frame. It should have been an airship, like a floating galleon or something.
 

Cybsled

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It was more gaslight than steampunk, but they could easily go a heavier steampunk route is the escalate a war with the Pact
 

LachiusTZ

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He wasn't a "noble savage".

The noble savage was the sole other black puck. As for the rest of your tirade regarding a single moment in 12 hrs of SJW propaganda. Maybe? I'm not gonna watch it again to make sure.

Aren't you the dude that says people are worthless if they aren't getting married and having kids, but hates his own wife?

Oh the hipster is pissy!

Dont think I ever said either of those things.

But then we gotta talk about what words mean, and I know how evangelical hipsters are about what words mean.

If you want to dig up quotes, and reply in the thread its contained in, I'll happily eat crow or explain to you the difference in "dont like" and "hate". Or whatever terminology fail your having.
 

Khane

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The noble savage was the sole other black puck. As for the rest of your tirade regarding a single moment in 12 hrs of SJW propaganda. Maybe? I'm not gonna watch it again to make sure.

You thought that was a tirade? Try to have a good day tomorrow Lachius. Life seems rough.
 

lgarthy

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honestly poeple keep call this steampunk but outside of a couple of scenes (pact dirigibles, etc) there wasn't really any steampunk in it. it was just victorian age fantasy. i'd love a show with heavy steampunk and lovecraft, but this wasn't it.

Steampunk spun off from cyberpunk by William Gibson (the father of cyberpunk and coiner of the term "the web."). He wrote "The Difference Engine" that led to the coining of the term "steampunk." But of course, the precursors to the genre had existed for over a century before Gibson (Conan Doyle, Jules Verne, Lovecraft, Shelley, Stoker, Wells...)

I will loosely define steampunk as an alternative neo-victorian futurism. The location of much steampunk is London or the European continent or an alternate version thereof, but the themes of steampunk can be (and are) set in the old west or on an alien world. There is often technology with gears, rotors, and airships. Usually the tech is post-combustion but pre-or early/alternate electrical technology. Keyboards are common, of the typewriter kind. There are often machines with gears and steam engines. There often is portrayed an underclass. Basic metals brass, or copper are commonplace. Romance is usually a theme too. It is a complex genre with a lot of sub-genres as well. Terry Gilliam, the director uses many steampunk themes and images in his films. But then again, these themes show up in "Hellboy" too. It's a fascinating a rich combination of a romanticized past blended with potential or alternate future. Doctor Who is another example of early steampunk.

Defining it in a few sentences is very hard. BUT "Carnival Row" is absolutely in/from the tradition of steampunk. It sways toward the fantasy genre too (but a lot of steampunk fiction does-- e.g., His Dark Materials trilogy ("The Golden Compass"), etc.

Carnival Row has these (and I am sure more) elements of steampunk
-alternate reality
-Victorian-esque setting
-steam and gaslamp technology (on the brink of electricity)
-romance subplot
-industrial elements
-class conflict
-metal and wood firearms
-a dash of magic
-horror
-crime
-mystery
-detectives

Steampunk also branches out into design, fashion, photography and other arts-- and even with this, Carnival Row embraces a steampunk aesthetic.

It is absolutely steampunk. No question. It TRIES to be.

So did "Penny Dreadful."
 

j00t

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Steampunk spun off from cyberpunk by William Gibson (the father of cyberpunk and coiner of the term "the web."). He wrote "The Difference Engine" that led to the coining of the term "steampunk." But of course, the precursors to the genre had existed for over a century before Gibson (Conan Doyle, Jules Verne, Lovecraft, Shelley, Stoker, Wells...)

I will loosely define steampunk as an alternative neo-victorian futurism. The location of much steampunk is London or the European continent or an alternate version thereof, but the themes of steampunk can be (and are) set in the old west or on an alien world. There is often technology with gears, rotors, and airships. Usually the tech is post-combustion but pre-or early/alternate electrical technology. Keyboards are common, of the typewriter kind. There are often machines with gears and steam engines. There often is portrayed an underclass. Basic metals brass, or copper are commonplace. Romance is usually a theme too. It is a complex genre with a lot of sub-genres as well. Terry Gilliam, the director uses many steampunk themes and images in his films. But then again, these themes show up in "Hellboy" too. It's a fascinating a rich combination of a romanticized past blended with potential or alternate future. Doctor Who is another example of early steampunk.

Defining it in a few sentences is very hard. BUT "Carnival Row" is absolutely in/from the tradition of steampunk. It sways toward the fantasy genre too (but a lot of steampunk fiction does-- e.g., His Dark Materials trilogy ("The Golden Compass"), etc.

Carnival Row has these (and I am sure more) elements of steampunk
-alternate reality
-Victorian-esque setting
-steam and gaslamp technology (on the brink of electricity)
-romance subplot
-industrial elements
-class conflict
-metal and wood firearms
-a dash of magic
-horror
-crime
-mystery
-detectives

Steampunk also branches out into design, fashion, photography and other arts-- and even with this, Carnival Row embraces a steampunk aesthetic.

It is absolutely steampunk. No question. It TRIES to be.

So did "Penny Dreadful."

honestly i don't think anyone REALLY cares so this should probably be the extent of the conversation. i understand your viewpoint, and i humbly disagree. alternate reality, romance subplot, class conflict, horror, crime, mystery, detectives are all pretty bad metrics to rate any kind of genre outside of the genres that have those descriptors in their name. the fact is that you can have those be in any kind of genre and so adding them doesn't give any credence to one genre or another (obviously excepting things like the horror genre needing to have horror in it).

carnival row has gaslight tech, but so did the victorian age. that's like saying that since it had soldiers in it, that automatically makes it a war show. same with firearms. the victorian era had the same kind of firearms they showed, so that doesn't have anything to do with steampunk either.

if you want to define steampunk as simply victorian age fantasy, then fine. personally when i think of steampunk, i specifically think about cog-wheeled automatons and blending machine and magic.

i'll finish my point with this question, and everyone can answer it for themselves.

Would you identify carnival row as fantasy or science fiction? because steampunk is a subgenre of science fiction.
 
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Lithose

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I would say the first season was just too much setup. It was basically the first act of a movie. Which is unsatisfying because now we have to wait for S2 to see where it's going.

I think this is a the best criticism I can walk away with now that I watched it. They very nearly fell into the world building trap that a lot of fantasy shows fall into. I'm pretty biased since I love world building, so I enjoyed the show--but I can totally understand why someone people felt like the plot moved no where. Because world building is not a story, even if its interesting. And this show, the "world" seems like its essential for the plot, so as you said, the entire first arc was spent on it--while a b story plot was used to cobble it together. It all felt like an first act, not a full story.

It was serviceable, but they really skirted close to falling into that hole.


There was some human POV outside politics/rich people. The police station sort of served that purpose.


The police station full of belligerent "racists" built almost totally on ignorance? Heh, probably not the best argument. That said. I wouldn't say the show is SJW propaganda, but it does exploit some tiresome tropes SJWs have since made into dogma. But in this show those themes manifest the same way they did in 90s "counter culture" pieces like Dances with Wolves ect. Which I'm fine with, it was subtle enough that its clear the story didn't serve the message, the message was just tossed in whenever they could. Which again, is not nearly as bad watching a story be turned to shit to spout a message (Which is the distinction IMO between this and ideological (Of any type) garbage).

But I do understand why people would get exasperated. Take your police example as the "every-man" perspective. Did you ever feel like the cops have any justification for their anger? Do you get PoV from them where you SEE the reasons why they are so bitter? Like situations where gang warfare or other specifically "immigrant" crime manifestations threaten the police or kill people they care about? Or are their comments chalked up to pure ignorance? Its that kind of bias people can get sick of. There is no attempt to show how the angry cops got that way; meanwhile the story focuses a lot on how the 'immigrants' got to be in the situation they are in. So when those fae creatures do wrong, we sympathize with them--we understand their motivations. When the cops are acting like jerks, we don't, because we have no idea why they are being belligerent assholes.

As said though, I don't think the show is bad because of this. But it does have a view and it pushes it as hard as it can without damaging the story. It sure as shit ain't "The Wire" or some nuanced understanding of all sides. In genuinely great stories, both sides would be developed enough that the conflict would be seen as almost tragic, both sides have their reasons for acting the way they do outside of 'because I'm EVIL!'. In reality, the heuristics which drive these kinds of group conflicts, or even things like bigotry, are complicated and not born totally from ignorance.
 
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LachiusTZ

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You thought that was a tirade? Try to have a good day tomorrow Lachius. Life seems rough.

It was close enough. Considering it was mostly based on an incorrect assumption. And regarding size, I dont read your posts often, so it was prolly 150x my usual daily dose of "Shit Khane posts". So it was relatively long. And I could feel the seething desire for virtue.

(Not sure how much of what I just typed was serious, I put about as much into it as I do when on hr 8 of a road trip and fully into highway hypnosis.)

I think this is a the best criticism I can walk away with now that I watched it. They very nearly fell into the world building trap that a lot of fantasy shows fall into. I'm pretty biased since I love world building, so I enjoyed the show--but I can totally understand why someone people felt like the plot moved no where. Because world building is not a story, even if its interesting. And this show, the "world" seems like its essential for the plot, so as you said, the entire first arc was spent on it--while a b story plot was used to cobble it together. It all felt like an first act, not a full story.

It was serviceable, but they really skirted close to falling into that hole.





The police station full of belligerent "racists" built almost totally on ignorance? Heh, probably not the best argument. That said. I wouldn't say the show is SJW propaganda, but it does exploit some tiresome tropes SJWs have since made into dogma. But in this show those themes manifest the same way they did in 90s "counter culture" pieces like Dances with Wolves ect. Which I'm fine with, it was subtle enough that its clear the story didn't serve the message, the message was just tossed in whenever they could. Which again, is not nearly as bad watching a story be turned to shit to spout a message (Which is the distinction IMO between this and ideological (Of any type) garbage).

But I do understand why people would get exasperated. Take your police example as the "every-man" perspective. Did you ever feel like the cops have any justification for their anger? Do you get PoV from them where you SEE the reasons why they are so bitter? Like situations where gang warfare or other specifically "immigrant" crime manifestations threaten the police or kill people they care about? Or are their comments chalked up to pure ignorance? Its that kind of bias people can get sick of. There is no attempt to show how the angry cops got that way; meanwhile the story focuses a lot on how the 'immigrants' got to be in the situation they are in. So when those fae creatures do wrong, we sympathize with them--we understand their motivations. When the cops are acting like jerks, we don't, because we have no idea why they are being belligerent assholes.

As said though, I don't think the show is bad because of this. But it does have a view and it pushes it as hard as it can without damaging the story. It sure as shit ain't "The Wire" or some nuanced understanding of all sides. In genuinely great stories, both sides would be developed enough that the conflict would be seen as almost tragic, both sides have their reasons for acting the way they do outside of 'because I'm EVIL!'. In reality, the heuristics which drive these kinds of group conflicts, or even things like bigotry, are complicated and not born totally from ignorance.

When watching it did you specifically look for the intersectional bullshit? Consciously? The whole time?

I did.

it was still a decent show, and good enough I made it through. And I liked some of the characters etc. But it was oozing w/ the shit. Happenstance or intentional? I'd guess 30/70?

Might just be the PhD in Critical Race theory I've gotten between the 3 or 4 political threads / GG.

Thx Obama.
 

iannis

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It means you fuck anything. Girls, Boys, Canteloupes, The Color Blue, a frying pan.
 
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LachiusTZ

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Cybsled

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That isn't a revelation. The show literally tells you that she used to have a relationship with that blue haired prostitute fae, then at some point they ended it.
 
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Asshat wormie

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In the context of the show where you can bang different kinds of furies and fairies and goats and shit the term isnt entirely meaningless. Its just that in the real world it doesnt make sense but in fairy land? Why not! After all, we all did watch some blacked goat action.
 
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