Clair Obscur: Expedition 33

Drinsic

privileged excrementlord
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FYI paintings are also not self aware sentient beings
Do you consider the worlds created within a Canvas in this game's world to be the same as a painting in ours?
 
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Janx

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No one in the painting is real. Verso included. You don't kill the characters in a book if you burn the pages. Doesn't matter how real they seem to you. Would it have been more obvious if they showed Maelle holding up puppet strings at the end? Because that's pretty much what was happening.
Given the comment of "created hundreds of worlds" I wonder if technically the painters/writers are gods in the universe. Outside of the obviously tragic world that takes place in the game due to verso's death, do the worlds in the paintings normally just go on being living/breathing worlds?
 

...

Goonsquad Officer
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I just made it to act 3, not far into it. i've done a lot of the character dialogue after entering act 3:

its taken 31 godamn years but i feel like this game is a successor to FF6 in a very powerful respect. it has the balls/dev dedication to make an end game twist that changes the story, and feel of the whole map. lots of new shit to work on stacked on top of a good 'what a tweeest' moment. I've been wanting such a thing since FF6, constantly disapointed by the overall story of other games' late game. ...maybe the chronotrigger stuff was interesting. but the rest of the FF games i played were pale in comparison...

anyway. on the verso thinks...i 'called it'! not entirely but i was wandering around part of the mansion in act 2 through one of the doors and saw the little boys room, with the esquie doll on the bed and then looked around the room and saw a few things that really piqued my interest. the whole time i was telling my self "wait. wait...both esque and monoco behave like a child. or rather they behave the way a child would imagine an invisible friend or super powered buddy would. the boy's room had an esquie doll and a gestral doll or something. I said to myself "i....think this boy actually made the world...or populated it with it's supernatural creatures". i was just struck by the way esquie was the utlimate powerful buddy but coudln't resolve actual situations, or the way all the gestrals act like manic children. very mythologically fae. anyway super cool story.

Also, fighting gross titty is like fighting a metronome. my ultimate foe.
 

Gravel

Mr. Poopybutthole
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I just made it to act 3, not far into it. i've done a lot of the character dialogue after entering act 3:

its taken 31 godamn years but i feel like this game is a successor to FF6 in a very powerful respect. it has the balls/dev dedication to make an end game twist that changes the story, and feel of the whole map. lots of new shit to work on stacked on top of a good 'what a tweeest' moment. I've been wanting such a thing since FF6, constantly disapointed by the overall story of other games' late game. ...maybe the chronotrigger stuff was interesting. but the rest of the FF games i played were pale in comparison...

anyway. on the verso thinks...i 'called it'! not entirely but i was wandering around part of the mansion in act 2 through one of the doors and saw the little boys room, with the esquie doll on the bed and then looked around the room and saw a few things that really piqued my interest. the whole time i was telling my self "wait. wait...both esque and monoco behave like a child. or rather they behave the way a child would imagine an invisible friend or super powered buddy would. the boy's room had an esquie doll and a gestral doll or something. I said to myself "i....think this boy actually made the world...or populated it with it's supernatural creatures". i was just struck by the way esquie was the utlimate powerful buddy but coudln't resolve actual situations, or the way all the gestrals act like manic children. very mythologically fae. anyway super cool story.

Also, fighting gross titty is like fighting a metronome. my ultimate foe.
You were close, but...

The gestrals (and Monoco) aren't manic children, they're dogs. It's why they're "reborn" but don't retain their memories, just as you replace a dog, and while similar, it's never the same as your old dog. See also, how they always want to fight (play), and even stuff like Monoco's "owowow" (barking). And Monoco is the most loyal companion to Verso.

Honestly, the game is pretty genius. While you question a lot of it as you're going, it's pretty hard to nail down exactly what's happening. But when you go and look back at it, you're like, holy shit there were clues literally everywhere. The map is a good example, where it was all there the entire time, you just never noticed. Some of that is because they limit how you explore, but some of it is because you'd just never think there was more there.
 
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Caliane

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
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I just made it to act 3, not far into it. i've done a lot of the character dialogue after entering act 3:

its taken 31 godamn years but i feel like this game is a successor to FF6 in a very powerful respect. it has the balls/dev dedication to make an end game twist that changes the story, and feel of the whole map. lots of new shit to work on stacked on top of a good 'what a tweeest' moment. I've been wanting such a thing since FF6, constantly disapointed by the overall story of other games' late game. ...maybe the chronotrigger stuff was interesting. but the rest of the FF games i played were pale in comparison...

anyway. on the verso thinks...i 'called it'! not entirely but i was wandering around part of the mansion in act 2 through one of the doors and saw the little boys room, with the esquie doll on the bed and then looked around the room and saw a few things that really piqued my interest. the whole time i was telling my self "wait. wait...both esque and monoco behave like a child. or rather they behave the way a child would imagine an invisible friend or super powered buddy would. the boy's room had an esquie doll and a gestral doll or something. I said to myself "i....think this boy actually made the world...or populated it with it's supernatural creatures". i was just struck by the way esquie was the utlimate powerful buddy but coudln't resolve actual situations, or the way all the gestrals act like manic children. very mythologically fae. anyway super cool story.

Also, fighting gross titty is like fighting a metronome. my ultimate foe.
just started act 3 too. I would say, came around on the story a bit with act 2 conclusion. not too much though.
did you not really put it together earlier? I thought it was instantly obvious alicia was maelle, the very first time we saw her in act 1. I was only slightly confused on,the exact nature. possibly, was maelle the mom?, was maelle the younger sister(as we did see 2 sisters, and clea wasn't clearly asserted till the act 2 epilogue)

esquie doll, the trains, etc. yeah. the fading boy, lady, man, etc..

I was a bit unsure how lune and sciel fit into it for a while. or sophie.
"gustove is like a father/brother" was a bit obvious. as well as sharing gear with verso, and renoir haircut. he is them combined.
lune is a reflection of Clea, as we see with her cold calculating behavior, and being barefoot.
and sciel is a reflection of aline, the mother. sciel is a mother, who lost her husband to an accident, has a surviving son. and is grieving, but will also do anything to get her husband back.


I don't feel any of my issues with the luminares being morons with no tactics was explained. no seriously, why did none of the expeditions ever send back information? 67 years and never changed tactics. ffs man, if your scouting expeditions never send back the data, what was the point?
they were created by the mother. but, verso created the expeditions
the father was trying to kill them all. but she was "protecting them"
what was the point of the countdown? did I miss that? time moves in the real world. is it one day=one year in the canvas? they just said, "in the canvas for a long time" right, no specific time given?
esquie can fly back to it at any time. verso didn't coordiate with the lumarians any more...

at this point, verso/real renoir are correct. it would be nice to save the people and canvas. but, it is clear, neither the mother or alicia can be trusted with it existing. ffs, shes calling herself maelle.

in the "real world" we see floating paintings. and the magic canvas. no other magic. verso still died, and alicia maimed. the magic seems quite limited. being able to create worlds, with time dilation would be very useful. its demiplane. but, outside that, limited. alicia could live and talk, and operate within a canvas. hold meetings, etc. they could test, experiment, learn, etc. 10,000 of practice. lifetimes of experience in days. take learned information back out of it. even if nothing physical can be transferred. we have to assume it can't, since alicia isn't simply healed inside, and out.
 
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velk

Trakanon Raider
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I was a bit unsure how lune and sciel fit into it for a while. or sophie.
"gustove is like a father/brother" was a bit obvious. as well as sharing gear with verso, and renoir haircut. he is them combined.
lune is a reflection of Clea, as we see with her cold calculating behavior, and being barefoot.
and sciel is a reflection of aline, the mother. sciel is a mother, who lost her husband to an accident, has a surviving son. and is grieving, but will also do anything to get her husband back.


Lune, Sciel and Gustave are effectively innocent bystanders, not part of the family drama at all.
I don't feel any of my issues with the luminares being morons with no tactics was explained. no seriously, why did none of the expeditions ever send back information? 67 years and never changed tactics. ffs man, if your scouting expeditions never send back the data, what was the point?
they were created by the mother. but, verso created the expeditions
the father was trying to kill them all. but she was "protecting them"
what was the point of the countdown? did I miss that? time moves in the real world. is it one day=one year in the canvas? they just said, "in the canvas for a long time" right, no specific time given?
esquie can fly back to it at any time. verso didn't coordiate with the lumarians any more...

The point with the expeditions was Gustave's whole thing - 'For those who come after'. Not everyone was that selfless though, hence them talking about how the expeditions get less volunteers every year.

Verso didn't create the expeditions - that's just the Lumieran's trying to work out what the fuck is going on, and prevent their own extinction.

Aline didn't create the Lumierans - she created the painted family and technically Maelle, although Clea's commentary on that suggests it may have not been deliberate. She's hiding from her grief in her son's favorite fantasy world, with the painted family to keep her company. She doesn't have any great ambition, she just wants to stay there, and is resisting Renoir's attempt to kick her out by destroying it.

The countdown was just the biggest case of correlation vs causation mistake in recent memory.
Aline was being overpowered by Renoir and was focusing her power on keeping children and young people alive, the countdown was just her warning to everyone.

There's presumably massive time dilation going on - Renoir has been in the canvas for 67 years, and Aline has been in there longer, but real world Alicia referred to that as 'longer than usual' - it's possible they are immortal and don't consider >67years much time, but given obvious aging signs, greatly sped up time within the canvas seems the simplest answer.
 

Bald Brah

Trakanon Raider
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I think the paintings are references to CRPGs. Aline is lost in her son's open world game he created before he died, and Renoir is trying to get her off the computer to cook him dinner. If she won't get off he's going to throw the whole computer in the bathtub. It's a family of WoW nerds.
 

Caliane

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
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Lune, Sciel and Gustave are effectively innocent bystanders, not part of the family drama at all.


The point with the expeditions was Gustave's whole thing - 'For those who come after'. Not everyone was that selfless though, hence them talking about how the expeditions get less volunteers every year.

Verso didn't create the expeditions - that's just the Lumieran's trying to work out what the fuck is going on, and prevent their own extinction.

Aline didn't create the Lumierans - she created the painted family and technically Maelle, although Clea's commentary on that suggests it may have not been deliberate. She's hiding from her grief in her son's favorite fantasy world, with the painted family to keep her company. She doesn't have any great ambition, she just wants to stay there, and is resisting Renoir's attempt to kick her out by destroying it.

The countdown was just the biggest case of correlation vs causation mistake in recent memory.
Aline was being overpowered by Renoir and was focusing her power on keeping children and young people alive, the countdown was just her warning to everyone.

There's presumably massive time dilation going on - Renoir has been in the canvas for 67 years, and Aline has been in there longer, but real world Alicia referred to that as 'longer than usual' - it's possible they are immortal and don't consider >67years much time, but given obvious aging signs, greatly sped up time within the canvas seems the simplest answer.
verso literally says, "that is why we created the expeditions." he was also part of expedition 00. had been in luminare for the planning of it. he lies often. but that seems specifically true.
he also states, that initially it was "Search and rescue" which is also probably true. He likely didnt have the death wish immediately.

lune, sciel, gustave are probably not literally them. but they are part of it for sure. its possible EVERYONE is some mix and matching of the personality traits of the family, and people Aline knew. but, those specifically have too many traits that mirror the family to be a coincidence.

there is also the axon factor. which.. I've not put together yet. 3 of them. one is another version of verso, the masks, one is another version of the mother/aline/mama. do we fight the 3rd later in act 3?

the MASK one has some connection with sciel. she pulls off her mask. "i am a mask", and then rips off its mask. this is probably a reflection of her grief, and the mask she's wearing to pretend everything is fine. I have also not squared away, Esquie's memories of sciel. and not swimming.
while the mother/dancer vibes with lune. this one is even less clear as it picks her up, and she just face blasts it.. but in general lune being a near carbon copy of clea, physically and personality isn't an accident. the game even focuses on cleas barefoot to make a point of it. lune is just asian, and more friendly/caring.

I think alicia getting painted over does imply aline did also create the luminarians. as, if it was just the painted family, she should have been reborn as part of the painted family. but, no she was reborn as a painted luminarian. so she made at least one.. maybe she didn't originally create them, but now is remaking them.

clea put her "pets" in to help. this is the gestrals, and perhaps the other dudes, I guess. they do fight the nevrons. but like.. barely.. if their purpose is to help get the mother out, shouldn't they also be fighting the luminaries, and collecting chroma? maybe thats what the trading is for. haha. buying the chroma. gestrals did exist prior to the fracture. so, they were childhood creations of clea to play in her brothers world I suppose. and repurposed.
which I suppose is the luminare question. it existed prior to the fracture. so did they. aline moved in. created painted verso, and lived in old luminare for a while, before renoir came in to bring her out. the fracture occurred, shattering it.

does time continue without a painter actively at the canvas? are new lives born outside their influence? are ALL new lives directly the work of an active painter?

nevrons.. what was their purpose? they were definitely created by aline. created after she was sealed away to collect chroma? they did say appeared after the fracture. so yes.

The countdown. I do think they state its a warning/message. I think that was the explanation in hindsight. Horrible at messaging I guess.. so the countdown is just her messaging her growing weaker.
The general misunderstanding yes. was another of my issues with lumarians being morons. that was a giant assumption right from the beginning. (although, it could have been verso lying to them about it..) but, even within the game, no one is asking questions. talking to gestrals, nevrons, verso himself. that was one of my issues. there are tons of really great, natural character interactions, but no one is asking the real questions about the world and logistics of anything.
painted alicia complains about the lies and manipulation. perhaps we needed to see a bit more of that. much of the expeditions stupidity could be explained by painted verso, or either renoir walking among them, and giving them bad information to further their own goals.


It should be pointed out, the game does expressly make a point to show gustov, and the expeditions acting outside the context of the family. the suicide attempts, and the thoughts/feelings of expeditions. they have free will, agency, and are independent agents. they are not puppets.
 
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Gravel

Mr. Poopybutthole
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Holy shit, you're all wrong and saying it with such confidence. It makes me wonder if you were actually even paying attention.

The people of Lumiere are Aline's creation. Renoir "kills Aline's oldest creations," being the people of Lumiere. The number countdown is her warning them that as her power wanes, she can only protect the youngest, and Renoir will soon be killing the next of her oldest creations. The painted family, yes, was also Aline.

Aline didn't necessarily "create" Maelle. Alicia fucked up and got painted over by Aline's chroma.

Clea painted over all the Nevrons which is why they're the bad guys (this may be one you haven't seen as it's an Act 3 thing).

The real Verso created the Gestrals, Esquie, and the original Nevrons, basically the world is his creation.

Lune and Sciel aren't even important. They were one of dozens of Expedition 33 members. They have fuckall to do with the family. They survived by a fluke. Esquie didn't save Sciel because she was special.

Edit: Was writing this while you posted the above. I should probably just move on since you're not even done with the story. This is why I said in a previous post that the story is great because you constantly think you've got it figured out, but you don't.

I'd also suggest you start collecting and reading all the Expedition Journals. They're not morons, they were figuring shit out and made discoveries all over the Continent.
 

Caliane

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
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I'd also suggest you start collecting and reading all the Expedition Journals. They're not morons, they were figuring shit out and made discoveries all over the Continent.
none of that got sent back home. no expeditioner, no journal ever returned home to actually pass any of that information on.

Im a bit surprised you all acting like there is no connection with party. its blatantly intentional from the devs.
Gustov sacrifices himself for maelle, exactly like Verso did. painted verso has that weird armor on his arm, like gustovs lumina converter. gustov's journal is a parallel to verso's canvas. the memories for those left behind.
(admittedly also not squared away the theme or point of the lumina converter.. how was it created exactly? what is it? why in terms of theme? it seems more plot relevent then lune's stains, or sciels fortell.)

"hostile nevrons are clea's pets". oh ok. that answers some questions. but now I don't understand verso's plan at all. he was waiting it out, and then saw maelle, and thought he could end things faster?
 
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Gravel

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Sure, you can argue they sucked at establishing lines of communication. But they ended up all over the place with varying degrees of success.

Some getting quite close to success, like getting to the Monolith. Many of these were even early on, like some of the 80's expeditions. They were just doomed to failure since they didn't understand that they were trying to defeat their literal creator. I want to say some of them even figured out Renoir was trapped under the Monolith and was actually the one responsible.
 

Caliane

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
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Sure, you can argue they sucked at establishing lines of communication. But they ended up all over the place with varying degrees of success.

Some getting quite close to success, like getting to the Monolith. Many of these were even early on, like some of the 80's expeditions. They were just doomed to failure since they didn't understand that they were trying to defeat their literal creator. I want to say some of them even figured out Renoir was trapped under the Monolith and was actually the one responsible.
kind of. its clear they aren't going for hard science. like I said how, they never really directly address the logistic of much of anything. how DID the expeditions get past the barrier for the monolith? I forget who made it. was it renoir to keep her in, or her to keep him out? he helps maelle pierce it...
 

...

Goonsquad Officer
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just started act 3 too. I would say, came around on the story a bit with act 2 conclusion. not too much though.
did you not really put it together earlier? I thought it was instantly obvious alicia was maelle, the very first time we saw her in act 1. I was only slightly confused on,the exact nature. possibly, was maelle the mom?, was maelle the younger sister(as we did see 2 sisters, and clea wasn't clearly asserted till the act 2 epilogue)

esquie doll, the trains, etc. yeah. the fading boy, lady, man, etc..

I was a bit unsure how lune and sciel fit into it for a while. or sophie.
"gustove is like a father/brother" was a bit obvious. as well as sharing gear with verso, and renoir haircut. he is them combined.
lune is a reflection of Clea, as we see with her cold calculating behavior, and being barefoot.
and sciel is a reflection of aline, the mother. sciel is a mother, who lost her husband to an accident, has a surviving son. and is grieving, but will also do anything to get her husband back.


I don't feel any of my issues with the luminares being morons with no tactics was explained. no seriously, why did none of the expeditions ever send back information? 67 years and never changed tactics. ffs man, if your scouting expeditions never send back the data, what was the point?
they were created by the mother. but, verso created the expeditions
the father was trying to kill them all. but she was "protecting them"
what was the point of the countdown? did I miss that? time moves in the real world. is it one day=one year in the canvas? they just said, "in the canvas for a long time" right, no specific time given?
esquie can fly back to it at any time. verso didn't coordiate with the lumarians any more...

at this point, verso/real renoir are correct. it would be nice to save the people and canvas. but, it is clear, neither the mother or alicia can be trusted with it existing. ffs, shes calling herself maelle.

in the "real world" we see floating paintings. and the magic canvas. no other magic. verso still died, and alicia maimed. the magic seems quite limited. being able to create worlds, with time dilation would be very useful. its demiplane. but, outside that, limited. alicia could live and talk, and operate within a canvas. hold meetings, etc. they could test, experiment, learn, etc. 10,000 of practice. lifetimes of experience in days. take learned information back out of it. even if nothing physical can be transferred. we have to assume it can't, since alicia isn't simply healed inside, and out.


In reply to: "did you not really put it together earlier?": Oh i thought maelle was either alicia, or alcia's child, or alicia was maelle's soul outside her body or something. i thought they were the same because she was the same midgetude self with the same eyes so i knew there was something there for sure.

I knew the paintress was ranoirs wife because he said something about her drowning in sorrow alone while damning the rest of us. (i think us meant the real family)

what i meant was that when i went through the manor, unlocking more doors, i noticed things in the manor are "real life" samples, of elements of the world. renoir made the siren place because it's based on a sculpture in his bathroom, across from the tub i think. the boy's room had all the trains, the gestral toy, the esquie toy. etc. and then as i looked around the boy's room i noticed a ton of things in the world were inspired by his toys. I began to think the world wasn't made by the paintress, but by a hybrid of t hat families things, mostly by the boy.


> ffs man, if your scouting expeditions never send back the data, what was the point?
they were created by the mother. but, verso created the expeditions
the father was trying to kill them all. but she was "protecting them""
what was the point of the countdown? did I miss that? time moves in the real world. is it one day=one year in the canvas? they just said, "in the canvas for a long time" right, no specific time given?
esquie can fly back to it at any time. verso didn't coordiate with the lumarians any more..


So i think there's several layers of fuckery here. it's my understanding that the Actual mom dove into the canvas to be around her boy's sliver of soul and creation. maybe even to watch the painted verson develop. Actual dad dove in to get her out. a lot like the plot of inception i guess.

Dad starts doing the gomage to wipe the place clean so she stops playing with dolls. mom prevents the gomage. so dad sends in an expedition to kill her and make her exit the painting. she makes a shield so no one can g et in. actual clea steps in and makes it where everytime the things painted by the mother are destroyed , the chroma doesn't go back to the mother, it goes to the father. mom starts to run out of juice and can't protect older creations. I'm not sure who suspended dead expedition's chroma. the countdown is the mom warning the families to cherish their children while they can cus doom is coming. she spends the rest of her time crying because actual dad is going to kill all her toys that she belives are alive now because she's been in there a life time or more.

I think the mom wanted to watch a little false family exist. so she watches painted renoir, alicia and verso...but they take on a life of their own. painted renoir loves his painted family and doesn't want them to get gomaged/erased so he slays expeditioners so they can't kill the paintress and wipe him and his family out. even more so he LOVES verso's soul in the canvas and he knows it's more 'real' than him or painted verso. that's why he says "if i have to kill you to save you i will". Because if the actual mom is vacated and the canvas wiped. the last piece of dead actual verso is gone.

anyway that's how it's seemed to me so far.

i gotta stay out of spoilers not directly replying to me tho, not done with act 3 yet.