Computer Issues

Argarth · Sep 12, 2018

@Dom

Have you got a G-Sync monitor, or are those tests just running with VSync off?

The reason I ask, is that the only time I've seen that behaviour was when a game menu/overlay was trying to run at a lower refresh rate/fps than the underlying game, at the same time.

I don't have G-Sync though, so may be totally unrelated if you do.

Since you mention Win 7 and 10, and other games, do you have any other software running that might be trying to force it's own independent refresh rate?

a_skeleton_05 · Sep 12, 2018

Argarth said:
@Dom

Have you got a G-Sync monitor, or are those tests running with VSync off?

The reason I ask, is that the only time I've seen that exact behaviour was when a game menu/overlay was trying to run at a lower refresh rate than the underlying game, at the same time.

I don't have G-Sync though, so may be totally unrelated if you do.

Since you mention Win 7 and 10, and other games, do you have any other software running that might be trying to force it's own independent refresh rate?

It's a freesync monitor, but with an Nvidia card.

The problem is gone now after throwing random shit at the troubleshooting wall, and I don't have a clue as to what was causing it. First WoW stopped showing the problem while DA:I still had it, then DA:I stopped having the problem. It seemed to stop around the time I switched on my second monitor to see if switching DA:I to it would make a difference.

It might be that DA:I had a problem setting that got fixed when it was forced to a lower resolution on the second monitor, or it unfucked a bad vsync setting or something. But that doesn't explain why WoW had the same problem earlier.

I even put in my AMD 390 before that and had no problems at all with that running, so my current guess is that there's something fucked up happening with Nvidia drivers and Windows' DWM forced vsync that's causing some frame timing problems.

I wouldn't worry about it at all now that it seems to be gone, but there's been a long running series of problems with shaky frametimes (even fluctuating when sitting at vsync cap with tons of overhead left)

a_skeleton_05 · Sep 12, 2018

Just realized that the 13.8/13.9ms frame times are indicative of 72hz, which is of course half of 144. The problem must be repeated automatic toggling of forced double buffered vsync somewhere in the pipeline

Argarth · Sep 12, 2018

Dom said:
It's a freesync monitor, but with an Nvidia card.

The problem is gone now after throwing random shit at the troubleshooting wall, and I don't have a clue as to what was causing it. First WoW stopped showing the problem while DA:I still had it, then DA:I stopped having the problem. It seemed to stop around the time I switched on my second monitor to see if switching DA:I to it would make a difference.

It might be that DA:I had a problem setting that got fixed when it was forced to a lower resolution on the second monitor, or it unfucked a bad vsync setting or something. But that doesn't explain why WoW had the same problem earlier.

I even put in my AMD 390 before that and had no problems at all with that running, so my current guess is that there's something fucked up happening with Nvidia drivers and Windows' DWM forced vsync that's causing some frame timing problems.

I wouldn't worry about it at all now that it seems to be gone, but there's been a long running series of problems with shaky frametimes (even fluctuating when sitting at vsync cap with tons of overhead left)

I usually read the relevant thread over on Geforce.com whenever a new driver is released, and your post could easily be a cut-and-paste from that Forum, heh.

There is some really helpful information in there amongst all the ranting. "General consensus" seems to be that Nvidia drivers have problems in one form or another (especially with G-Sync) ever since Win 10 Creators Edition and the changes to their WDDM.

Fortunately, I've had no issues for the last two releases, but I did go right back to 391.35 a couple of times (previous WDDM) and they have always been stable.

Argarth · Sep 12, 2018

Dom said:
Just realized that the 13.8/13.9ms frame times are indicative of 72hz, which is of course half of 144. The problem must be repeated automatic toggling of forced double buffered vsync somewhere in the pipeline

Do you purge with DDU before updating drivers. Sorry if this sounds obvious. =)

a_skeleton_05 · Sep 12, 2018

Argarth said:
I usually read the relevant thread over on Geforce.com whenever a new driver is released, and your post could easily be a cut-and-paste from that Forum, heh.

There is some really helpful information in there amongst all the ranting. "General consensus" seems to be that Nvidia drivers have problems in one form or another (especially with G-Sync) ever since Win 10 Creators Edition and the changes to their WDDM.

Fortunately, I've had no issues for the last two releases, but I did go right back to 391.35 a couple of times (previous WDDM) and they have always been stable.

Yeah, I'm familiar with a lot of those problems, and had been living with the older drivers just fine until this problem started popping up.

Argarth said:
Do you purge with DDU before updating drivers. Sorry if this sounds obvious. =)

Off and on while switching back and forth between the drivers. I got lazy after the 3rd or so time within an hour. But the main problem started well after having been using the 385.69 drivers, and persisted throughout updates and DDU purges

Argarth · Sep 12, 2018

Oh well, good to see the problem resolved itself anyway.

a_skeleton_05 · Sep 14, 2018

Welp, the problem popped back up and I've been able to consistently reproduce it. It occurs when vsync is enabled in a game, the GPU usage is at max or near max, but the FPS is below the actual framerate limit.

Now, the weird part is that it's happening across multiple OS', multiple games, multiple driver versions, multiple BIOS versions, multiple CPU overclock settings, and even happening when switching out the 1080ti for my radeon 390.

I figured it might be an issue with how Afterburner & RTSS is monitoring things, but even Radeon's monitoring stuff was showing weird GPU usage plummets in the same situation, and Doom & Warframe's in-game monitoring was showing wonky frametimes.

I really have no clue as to what's going on, but can only really see it being a hardware issue. Maybe the mobo as it has had EMI & audio popping problems since the start (perhaps related to some shitty power regulation) which could also fuck with frametimes. Or a PSU problem, or maybe even a ram problem.

The big issue I have with troubleshooting this is I'm not actually sure if there is a problem other than bad monitoring. I've felt that my fps has been jittery and "off" for a year now, but I can't tell if it's just imagined or an actual problem, and the various Windows 10/nvidia problems might just have me seeing a problem where none exist. (I spend more time looking at performance numbers than the game as of late)

Ordered a new mobo to give that a try, but if anyone has any other ideas I'd love to hear them.

Argarth · Sep 15, 2018

Dom said:
Welp, the problem popped back up and I've been able to consistently reproduce it. It occurs when vsync is enabled in a game, the GPU usage is at max or near max, but the FPS is below the actual framerate limit.

Sorry if I've missed something crucial in your explanation, but it appears you are seeing normal VSync behaviour. With your 144Hz monitor and VSync ON, every time the frame rate drops below your refresh rate (and there is no new frame in the buffer to display) you get the last one repeated, and therefore a halving of your frame rate. A frame-rate limiter like RTSS doesn't help, because it doesn't change the way VSync works.

The only way to avoid this is to use Adaptive VSync, or under-clock you panel's refresh rate if that's possible. (the basic reason I won't buy a really fast panel without GSync)

Or you could use the new Beta RTSS, and with it's Scanline Sync x/2 mode run the hungry games at 72FPS permanently.

=======edit:
Looking at those graphs you posted again, I thought I'd try to duplicate the symptoms on my end. Unfortunately, since my monitor is only 75Hz, my 1080Ti is never going to be working as hard as yours with VSync ON, and the only game I have that will fully max out my GPU and still produce a workable frame rate, is Mankind Divided.

Sure enough, my FPS does drop to ~37 with high enough settings (and hardly goes lower), but when I go into a corner and look at the floor, Afterburner says it has risen to ~60. This is clearly not the case, as the chunking is still terrible if I spin around, and consistent with frames still being constantly repeated, regardless of what the tool is saying.

I couldn't duplicate your graph though. Too many variables getting in the way, and the polling rate/averaging of Afterburner is likely also a factor. Oh well, was a fun exercise. =]

a_skeleton_05 · Sep 15, 2018

Argarth said:
Sorry if I've missed something crucial in your explanation, but it appears you are seeing normal VSync behaviour. With your 144Hz monitor and VSync ON, every time the frame rate drops below your refresh rate (and there is no new frame in the buffer to display) you get the last one repeated, and therefore a halving of your frame rate. A frame-rate limiter like RTSS doesn't help, because it doesn't change the way VSync works.

The only way to avoid this is to use Adaptive VSync, or under-clock you panel's refresh rate if that's possible. (the basic reason I won't buy a really fast panel without GSync)

Or you could use the new Beta RTSS, and with it's Scanline Sync x/2 mode run the hungry games at 72FPS permanently.

=======edit:
Looking at those graphs you posted again, I thought I'd try to duplicate the symptoms on my end. Unfortunately, since my monitor is only 75Hz, my 1080Ti is never going to be working as hard as yours with VSync ON, and the only game I have that will fully max out my GPU and still produce a workable frame rate, is Mankind Divided.

Sure enough, my FPS does drop to ~37 with high enough settings (and hardly goes lower), but when I go into a corner and look at the floor, Afterburner says it has risen to ~60. This is clearly not the case, as the chunking is still terrible if I spin around, and consistent with frames still being constantly repeated, regardless of what the tool is saying.

I couldn't duplicate your graph though. Too many variables getting in the way, and the polling rate/averaging of Afterburner is likely also a factor. Oh well, was a fun exercise. =]

I've been using vsync for years and this is the first time I've seen graphs like these. I suppose it certainly could just be the buffered frame causing odd reporting, but it also sort of looks like there's a tug-a-war going on between vsync on/off, or DB/TB. But as it doesn't feel like a complete and utter bogged down mess, it's probably just monitoring oddities. Maybe something changed with how RTSS looks at things.

I'm probably just going to spend money on a gsync monitor so I can avoid vsync altogether and be done with it. yay panel lottery?

Thanks for trying to duplicate it

Argarth · Sep 15, 2018

Dom said:
I've been using vsync for years and this is the first time I've seen graphs like these. I suppose it certainly could just be the buffered frame causing odd reporting, but it also sort of looks like there's a tug-a-war going on between vsync on/off, or DB/TB. But as it doesn't feel like a complete and utter bogged down mess, it's probably just monitoring oddities. Maybe something changed with how RTSS looks at things.

I'm probably just going to spend money on a gsync monitor so I can avoid vsync altogether and be done with it. yay panel lottery?

Thanks for trying to duplicate it

Definitely a weird one.

I'll be doing the same and getting a GSync monitor eventually. Just waiting for the Price/Panel/UW/Refresh/ULMB stars all to align. Happy hunting!

slippery · Sep 30, 2018

Co-workers son has been building a computer. Couldn't get it to work. Wouldn't boot. Paid a computer tech to look at it, they told him bad motherboard. Had her bring it in today. Motherboard screwed directly to case, no stand offs used. Gg short that right out!

She didn't have all the stuff with her, so no stand offs so i couldn't just fix it myself and test it. My question is is that motherboard going to be toast?

Denamian · Sep 30, 2018

I would say there's a chance it's still alive. Definitely want to test it with stand offs before you spend any money.

ShakyJake · Sep 30, 2018

slippery said:
Co-workers son has been building a computer. Couldn't get it to work. Wouldn't boot. Paid a computer tech to look at it, they told him bad motherboard. Had her bring it in today. Motherboard screwed directly to case, no stand offs used. Gg short that right out!

She didn't have all the stuff with her, so no stand offs so i couldn't just fix it myself and test it. My question is is that motherboard going to be toast?

That's funny. I used to operate a computer repair/hobby store and a customer brought in a system he built with exactly the same 'problem'. Motherboard was fine once properly seated with stand-offs.

Funkor · Oct 4, 2018

ShakyJake said:
That's funny. I used to operate a computer repair/hobby store and a customer brought in a system he built with exactly the same 'problem'. Motherboard was fine once properly seated with stand-offs.

I did the same thing once with the first computer I hand built so try it again with stand offs before doing an RMA.

slippery · Oct 4, 2018

She just texted me today that apparently they still don't have it working. She's probably going to just bring it to me tomorrow lol

slippery · Oct 6, 2018

slippery said:
Co-workers son has been building a computer. Couldn't get it to work. Wouldn't boot. Paid a computer tech to look at it, they told him bad motherboard. Had her bring it in today. Motherboard screwed directly to case, no stand offs used. Gg short that right out!

She didn't have all the stuff with her, so no stand offs so i couldn't just fix it myself and test it. My question is is that motherboard going to be toast?

Okay so I got my hands on this tonight, they still didn't have all the stand offs in and the motherboard was just sitting there when they gave it to me.

I took it apart and put it together correctly from scratch. This is I believe the part list (I'll just say I didn't pick them, like the power supply that is way too much) System Builder - Ryzen 5 1600 3.2GHz 6-Core, GeForce GTX 1050 Ti 4GB GAMING X 4G, Focus G (Black) ATX Mid Tower - PCPartPicker

Plug it in, motherboard RGB lights and power light turn on. Try to power it up, nothing happens. No fans, no change in lights, no QLED lights, nothing.

I might try taking it out of the case and booting in up outside tomorrow (tbh I should have done that first, but I'm sick and not thinking). I feel like the motherboard is dead, they probably damaged it somewhere in all the nonsense. She didn't give my spare power supply back so I can't use that to test. Any thoughts? Google is not being much help atm

Lanx · Oct 6, 2018

slippery said:
Okay so I got my hands on this tonight, they still didn't have all the stand offs in and the motherboard was just sitting there when they gave it to me.

I took it apart and put it together correctly from scratch. This is I believe the part list (I'll just say I didn't pick them, like the power supply that is way too much) System Builder - Ryzen 5 1600 3.2GHz 6-Core, GeForce GTX 1050 Ti 4GB GAMING X 4G, Focus G (Black) ATX Mid Tower - PCPartPicker

Plug it in, motherboard RGB lights and power light turn on. Try to power it up, nothing happens. No fans, no change in lights, no QLED lights, nothing.

I might try taking it out of the case and booting in up outside tomorrow (tbh I should have done that first, but I'm sick and not thinking). I feel like the motherboard is dead, they probably damaged it somewhere in all the nonsense. She didn't give my spare power supply back so I can't use that to test. Any thoughts? Google is not being much help atm

did you remember to connect the speaker to listen for beep codes if you can't post?

also since you're sick, maybe you missed the power to the motherboard AND the cpu power too? the standard 24pin is nothing, but i know the new ryzens now use 8pin (before amds used 4pins, the usual 4+4) (make sure they didn't try to hulk smash an 8pin connector to the vid card)

also video card, maybe you forgot to power up the video card too, or you're just usings vga on board? if thats the case, maybe some weird bios fucked up and it's waiting for vga 0 when you have vga 1, so clear the bios, take out cmos battery for full reset. (actually just looked at mb, no on board vga, still clear bios is good).

also, since it has a regular hard drive, do you hear it powering up? then powersuppy is fine and there is some funky shit in the 24pin mb connector.

slippery · Oct 6, 2018

Did not have a speaker so I couldn't listen for post. I ordered one from amazon for $4, it'll get here Sunday so I can try then.

All the things have the appropriate power connected. Did try clearing cmos by removing battery for a while.

It's literally hit power button, nothing happens though. Even tried just connecting the 2 power switch pins with a screw driver to see if maybe it was a bad power switch, nothing

slippery · Oct 6, 2018

Anyone have any opinions on a low to mid end board for that build?

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Computer Issues

Argarth

On the verandah

a_skeleton_05

a_skeleton_05

Argarth

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Argarth

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a_skeleton_05

Argarth

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a_skeleton_05

Argarth

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Argarth

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slippery

Denamian

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ShakyJake

Funkor

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slippery

Lanx

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