Crowfall

Kharzette · Apr 3, 2021

Kirun is right I am old and I most definitely do not like "skill" based combat. To me, when I see RPG, I think of systems where my character stats are the determining factor of a battle's outcome. That and a bit of dice rolling.

I see it that way because I grew up on Ultima and Bard's tale. Console games that claim to be RPG are very different, being more a mix of (bad) fighting game and (bad) visual novel. I've tried, truly, to play and enjoy them over the years.

The effort sunk into that only reinforced my hope that the next final fantasy truly is final.

Bits of action can be ok for me, such as DAOC style reactives. But eastern actiony games really are a mess visually. Too much emphasis on fights "looking cool" and feeling like your character is naruto than actually providing a real combat experience.

Lithose · Apr 3, 2021

Kirun said:
Not innovation at all? I must've forgot all the AMAZING, totally not boring combat present in MMOs then! Do you mind naming me a couple? Because prior to Tera, they were all tab-targeting snorefests, except maybe a few quirks/gimmicks coming out of Korean "MMOs" like Granado Espada. Tera started what BDO has almost perfected. So, while you could maybe make the argument that BDO was more on the iterative side, to claim that revolutionizing a fundamental aspect of MMOs isn't "innovating"? You couldn't "No True Scotsman!" harder if you tried. If that doesn't reach your bar for innovation, I don't know what possibly could. Each aspect of MMOs looked at on an individual basis will always be done better in a single-player environment.

BDO is also one of the only MMOs out there offering a truly open world. Something a LOT of "vets" here claim they want in the MMO space, no? You can literally play the game almost however you want. Want to just be a tradeskiller that never does combat? Yup! Want to breed horses all day trying to breed the perfect mount? Go ahead! Want to be a fisherman that sails out to the deep ocean for the best fish? You can.

There are really only about two (three depending on what you consider standard) "industry standard" things that BDO doesn't have. One is meaningful PvP progression - you can't really PvP "for gear" in BDO, nor can you climb the gear ladder via PvP. The game does force you to engage in some sort of PvE aspect to make meaningful gear progression. It does cap gear score in T1 node wars, however, so you can PvP without gear advantage making a difference. The only other thing it doesn't really have is "raid" content - at least if we're assuming "raid" content is the classical EQ/WoW model. It did away with the "holy trinity", you can farm/grind whatever mobs you want, many of those locations having rare spawns/drops/"bosses", extremely rare but extremely valuable/useful items that can take days worth of time to farm, etc. "Open-world" dungeons/content designed for group play, etc. I guess there might be a third if you consider "quest to progress" a standard now (there is a point in the game where questing can be an effective method of leveling, but it's an extremely brief window that only lasts a few levels and is still less efficient than group-play). I personally don't, but I could see how some would and you could include it as a third standard the game is missing.

People bitching about having to "grind" in BDO or "running around in circles" killing mobs are the same people longing for the days staring at the fucking safe wall in LGuk. If you hated it in EQ and it wasn't the game for you while also shitting on BDO for it? Fine. But a lot of the people bitching about what a "grindfest" BDO is are the same fucking people who spent 30 hours camping for their SMR while playing every other TLP Darkpaw drops. I fail to see how plopping yourself in a room and staring at a wall while mobs are corralled to you is at all fundamentally different than running around a cave/"dungeon"/open-world area farming respawning mobs.
While none of those systems are obviously innovative systems by themselves, they've combined a lot of "industry standard" stuff along with revolutionizing one of the most fundamental things present in MMOs - combat. If that isn't "innovative", I don't know what the fuck could ever meet your impossibly high bar of moving the genre forward. By those standards, WoW did nothing to move the genre forward - all Blizzard really did was iterate and "perfect" systems EQ/MUDs had set and the "! questing" system is only innovation in one area! Hell, you could even argue the same of EQ in '99. All Verant "innovated" was moving MUDs to 3D. By your standards, fundamentally changing a singular aspect isn't enough and single player games did it better anyhow - System Shock 2 and Unreal Tournament both released that year, which were far better in the context of 3D innovations.

If you're not going to read my posts, I'm not going to respond seriously to yours. Repackaging what is in a single player game, watering it down, and jamming it into an MMO is not "innovation". It's boring.

If that doesn't reach your bar for innovation, I don't know what possibly could. Each aspect of MMOs looked at on an individual basis will always be done better in a single-player environment.

After the Souls game became smash hits, when I'd see "souls like" games jam their combat system into other formats, I didn't think 'wowzer, this is so innovative'!

Sorry. No. There are things MMOs do that no other game can do, and unfortunately most MMOs try to minimize those aspects for fear it will make things "unfun".

Kirun · Apr 3, 2021

uniqueuser said:
who here enjoys getting jacked up just because all your egg timers happen to be ticking when the other guy's aren't?

So you're pissed that the other guy managed his cooldowns/skills better, thus having higher skill, and beat you? But I thought you guys wanted skill-based combat?

Lithose said:
If you're not going to read my posts, I'm not going to respond seriously to yours. Repackaging what is in a single player game, watering it down, and jamming it into an MMO is not "innovation". It's boring.

Repackaging a single-player game? LOL, you clearly have never played the game and this is your easy-to-package equivalent of, "YOU'RE A RACIST!", designed to shutdown discussion. This reads like somebody who has no fucking clue what he was talking about (probably because you saw a few YouTube videos or decided to parrot what others think the game is), got called out on it, and now have some arbitrary "line" you want me to meet in order to have a discussion.

Lithose said:
After the Souls game became smash hits, when I'd see "souls like" games jam their combat system into other formats, I didn't think 'wowzer, this is so innovative'!

Sorry. No. There are things MMOs do that no other game can do, and unfortunately most MMOs try to minimize those aspects for fear it will make things "unfun".

Ok, Raph Koster, please list me all the "innovative" things EQ did. Because they literally just brought MUDs into a 3D world. Brad himself has even said this. Based on the bar you've set, that isn't "innovation", because "LOL after Wolfenstein3D became a smash hit, when I'd see "3D like!" games jam their 3D system in other formats, I didn't think "wowzer, this is so innovative!".

More proof you have no fucking idea what you're talking about in relation to BDO and are just parroting lines if you're trying to make a "souls-like" correlation. The game doesn't play like a souls-game and has never claimed to be "souls-like". BDO has almost every fundamental aspect of EQ that you guys claim made it great (except for traditional raiding). And even improves upon some of the aspects you claim sucked. Yet very few people here play it. Why? Because you're all stuck in your fucking wayback machines thinking you want something you actually don't.

You fossils are the equivalent to some guy standing around in 1908 as he saw the first Model T roll out of the factory saying, "It might be faster than a buggy, but it has 4 wheels too! How is that innovating!?!". Just face the facts that you guys are aging luddites, screaming "BACK IN MY DAY!!!!" as the world of MMOs passes you the fuck by. Because you're too busy bitching about "the way it was", chasing the dragon, or staring back into the past with rose-colored glasses. You guys aren't seeing innovation because you don't want to see innovation - you'll "No True Scotsman!" it at every turn.

Kirun · Apr 3, 2021

Kharzette said:
To me, when I see RPG, I think of systems where my character stats are the determining factor of a battle's outcome. That and a bit of dice rolling.

In essence, you want time invested to be the largest determining factor of a battle's outcome? Those who can farm up the most +better gear have the best outcomes. And that's a 100% fine attitude to have/want out of MMOs, I'm not knocking your enjoyment of those aspects of an RPG. You can actually play that game in 2021. Just don't sit here and try to tell me that system is "innovative" or moving the genre forward when it already existed in a game like EQ.

Kharzette · Apr 3, 2021

It's true, there isn't much change since EQ without big moves towards action.

All innovations shortly after were primarily interface driven and led to needing your eyeballs glued to the UI instead of watching the action.

People tried mixing in active dodge and I've never seen that done well. Double tap especially drives me nuts as I like tapping to make small adjustments and would dodge by accident.

I barely played guildwars2 but starwars the old republic was probably the last mmo made that I could enjoy a good fight in, and only some of the classes were done well.

There are still many problems left unsolved in the mmo space. Here's one I was just thinking about:

This is a shot of the OGN tournament booths from the glory days of overwatch. The elevated chair in the back was known as the lucio chair.

Lucio is a healer / support, but in those days 9 times out of 10 was the team's primary shot caller. Seated there is the late great Internethulk.

Healers can never be shot callers in mmos, at least in tab targeted ones, because they have to stare at health bars. They are often blind to all situational awareness and rely on sound to tell what is happening around them. How do you fix that? Should you fix that?

There really has been alot of stagnation in the west, and eastern solutions to problems are often client trusting and that doesn't fly over here.

Maybe we'll get a few baby steps with the next few games (crowfall, camelot, pantheon etc)

Lithose · Apr 3, 2021

Kirun said:
Repackaging a single-player game? LOL, you clearly have never played the game and this is your easy-to-package equivalent of, "YOU'RE A RACIST!", designed to shutdown discussion. This reads like somebody who has no fucking clue what he was talking about (probably because you saw a few YouTube videos or decided to parrot what others think the game is), got called out on it, and now have some arbitrary "line" you want me to meet in order to have a discussion.

This game isn't going to fuck you, Kir. You can think whatever you want. BDO is such dogshit that I couldn't care less--but I care just enough about this dying genre to talk on your other points.

Ok, Raph Koster, please list me all the "innovative" things EQ did. Because they literally just brought MUDs into a 3D world. Brad himself has even said this. Based on the bar you've set, that isn't "innovation", because "LOL after Wolfenstein3D became a smash hit, when I'd see "3D like!" games jam their 3D system in other formats, I didn't think "wowzer, this is so innovative!".

More proof you have no fucking idea what you're talking about in relation to BDO and are just parroting lines if you're trying to make a "souls-like" correlation. The game doesn't play like a souls-game and has never claimed to be "souls-like". BDO has almost every fundamental aspect of EQ that you guys claim made it great (except for traditional raiding). And even improves upon some of the aspects you claim sucked. Yet very few people here play it. Why? Because you're all stuck in your fucking wayback machines thinking you want something you actually don't

You fossils are the equivalent to some guy standing around in 1908 as he saw the first Model T roll out of the factory saying, "It might be faster than a buggy, but it has 4 wheels too! How is that innovating!?!". Just face the facts that you guys are aging luddites, screaming "BACK IN MY DAY!!!!" as the world of MMOs passes you the fuck by. Because you're too busy bitching about "the way it was", chasing the dragon, or staring back into the past with rose-colored glasses. You guys aren't seeing innovation because you don't want to see innovation - you'll "No True Scotsman!" it at every turn.

Yeah, EQ wasn't that innovative. It made the genre more accessible so people could play and make friends online back in a time period where there were hardly any accessible games that could do that (Muds, and Battle Net and a few others). I'd say WoW was more innovative than EQ with its phasing system, which was actually a unique, new idea that was literally meant to innovate THIS genre and not something plucked out of a single player game and jammed in so you could "do the thing but in front of your friends" (Which is now done far better in battle royal or smaller scale online games). But for a while, accessibility was enough because the main feature of these games--the social interactions with other people--was enough to sell them as long as more and more people could easily slide into them. (Which is why WoW dominated--more more accessibility. But they've run that well absolutely dry--while competition in terms of online games has exploded.)

Also, I never said the game played like a souls game...you idiot. I used the explosion of "souls like" games as an example. You really need to stop and read.

But keep believing this genre is innovating, while it slowly dies--and blaming its death on "luddites" who just can't understand how awesome-sauce these games really are (lol, sounds like a great product...Its not us that's wrong, its our audience!)--the reality is Facebook became a better MMO than modern MMOs, because social media designers understood what people mainly got out of MMOs. Keep trying to make "make a better game" in these worlds and they will keep failing. Because no matter how great the game is--its still going to be inferior to a single player game, always. ALWAYS. Nearly every "innovation" you can steal was done better 20 years ago in the single player genre. And anyone who isn't an easily dazzled, drooling retard will go "meh" after realizing they've used this "innovative" system before...a decade ago, in a far better game, and wonder what the real hook to this "game" is.

Until designers realize the emphasis should be on the world, and the people, not the game--they will continue to fail. The next big MMO will either be due to a leap in AI design allowing for players to leave truly unique imprints even within an MMO world and/or what that Vaporware Star Citizen is trying with facial emotes through VR (Something tailored for this specific genre, to emphasize its strength) or some other innovation that is designed to cater to the massive aspect of being online--and not trying to catch up to where single player games were 20 years ago. Or it will be because someone actually has the balls to create a world again..(But I'd actually bet on some leap in technology and not great design being the thing that rekindles this genre)

Keep flexing that people bored to death with this genre though just can't handle your APMs broski..lol.

Hekotat · Apr 3, 2021

Welp, we know which company

Kirun works for.

Mr Creed · Apr 3, 2021

Pyros said:
Oh certainly doesn't seem too different, but I also didn't play EQ much. I did play XI a fair bit and yeah it was that, especially as the puller so I was actively playing the game, versus the rest of the group just sitting there and chatting while waiting on mana or pressing their 3 buttons when I got a mob back to them. And I've done that in other games too, I played a lot of poe which is just that, running around in circles exploding mobs before they can even attack you, with only a few bosses every 6-12hours to break the monotony. I think my issue with it is, with this sort of combat I'd much rather get group encounters like Tera/BnS/GW2(to some extent) and so on, where I can have fun with the combat. Don't even need the trinity, so I feel it's a bit of a lost chance, although the game's doing more than fine anyway so it's not like it's suffering from it, it's just my personnal issue with the game from the little I've played it.

Maybe I'll try it again at some point and find it more fun, the seasonal stuff at least looks like it'd speed the process up I just need to find time for it.

I'm actually all for more involved action combat. I tried WoW during the free weeks before the expansion, and GW2 towards the end of the year. Both didn't do it for me anymore compared to more active combat and environment interaction. Climbing, actually hitting what your animated weapon swings hits, dodging the same from mobs are all things I want now. I can't do tab target shit anymore. But there aren't any MMOs that offer that AND I also liked the rest of the game features. Since I also don't care as much for guild and raid stuff any longer, I've mostly just drifted into co-op and solo games like MHW for that fix.

Pyros · Apr 3, 2021

Mr Creed said:
I'm actually all for more involved action combat. I tried WoW during the free weeks before the expansion, and GW2 towards the end of the year. Both didn't do it for me anymore compared to more active combat and environment interaction. Climbing, actually hitting what your animated weapon swings hits, dodging the same from mobs are all things I want now. I can't do tab target shit anymore. But there aren't any MMOs that offer that AND I also liked the rest of the game features. Since I also don't care as much for guild and raid stuff any longer, I've mostly just drifted into co-op and solo games like MHW for that fix.

Yeah MHW is great for that imo, honestly it's about as mmo as a lot of these korean games if you party with people(4man parties which is generally normal group size anyway, long term progression with deco/charm farming, new content being added over time) but without most of the P2W hassles since it's just a one time purchase. I spent like 1k hours the past couple years on MHW+Iceborne and will probably spend a large amount on Rise too once I get it on PC/Switch Pro(if that's an actual thing), and then on MHW2, fills that hole perfectly for me for satisfying combat and slow progression. I still play FFXIV too though for the "real" mmo stuff, but I largely play it as a single player game, I just party with randoms and just quit once I'm bored to come back later when there's more content.

That said if/when Crowfall comes out I'll probably check it out for a bit just cause it's new, but it's been super low on my radar and the fact they're still in fucking beta like 3years later or whatever is certainly not helping.

Tmac · Apr 4, 2021

Hekotat said:
Welp, we know which company Kirun works for.

Was thinking the same thing, lol.

jayrebb · Apr 4, 2021

FPS update

Kirun · Apr 4, 2021

Lithose said:
This game isn't going to fuck you, Kir. You can think whatever you want. BDO is such dogshit that I couldn't care less--but I care just enough about this dying genre to talk on your other points.

Yeah, EQ wasn't that innovative. It made the genre more accessible so people could play and make friends online back in a time period where there were hardly any accessible games that could do that (Muds, and Battle Net and a few others). I'd say WoW was more innovative than EQ with its phasing system, which was actually a unique, new idea that was literally meant to innovate THIS genre and not something plucked out of a single player game and jammed in so you could "do the thing but in front of your friends" (Which is now done far better in battle royal or smaller scale online games). But for a while, accessibility was enough because the main feature of these games--the social interactions with other people--was enough to sell them as long as more and more people could easily slide into them. (Which is why WoW dominated--more more accessibility. But they've run that well absolutely dry--while competition in terms of online games has exploded.)

Also, I never said the game played like a souls game...you idiot. I used the explosion of "souls like" games as an example. You really need to stop and read.

But keep believing this genre is innovating, while it slowly dies--and blaming its death on "luddites" who just can't understand how awesome-sauce these games really are (lol, sounds like a great product...Its not us that's wrong, its our audience!)--the reality is Facebook became a better MMO than modern MMOs, because social media designers understood what people mainly got out of MMOs. Keep trying to make "make a better game" in these worlds and they will keep failing. Because no matter how great the game is--its still going to be inferior to a single player game, always. ALWAYS. Nearly every "innovation" you can steal was done better 20 years ago in the single player genre. And anyone who isn't an easily dazzled, drooling retard will go "meh" after realizing they've used this "innovative" system before...a decade ago, in a far better game, and wonder what the real hook to this "game" is.

Until designers realize the emphasis should be on the world, and the people, not the game--they will continue to fail. The next big MMO will either be due to a leap in AI design allowing for players to leave truly unique imprints even within an MMO world and/or what that Vaporware Star Citizen is trying with facial emotes through VR (Something tailored for this specific genre, to emphasize its strength) or some other innovation that is designed to cater to the massive aspect of being online--and not trying to catch up to where single player games were 20 years ago. Or it will be because someone actually has the balls to create a world again..(But I'd actually bet on some leap in technology and not great design being the thing that rekindles this genre)

Keep flexing that people bored to death with this genre though just can't handle your APMs broski..lol.

I'd love to discuss this topic more with you, but let's move it to another thread or DMs, yeah? I'd rather not continue shitting up the Crowfall thread with stuff that is mostly off-topic and very loosely related to Crowfall.

Srathor · Apr 4, 2021

The FPS is never going to be a barn burner in Crowfall. They do not do baked in lightmaps, and movement meshes. The parcels can be placed and rotated and such and it has caused many issues.

Watch videos made in the last 2 weeks. Anything older than 2 months is rather outdated. A lot has changed with the game overall and a large patch is in the works with a Battle royal mode for instant action. (A lot of folks are not happy about it, but we will see what happens)

It might not be something folks enjoy. It never going to be a graphics showcase, nor a pinnacle of engineering. It is mostly and open world pvp game with no controls on zerging, made by a smaller company, who the primary guys behind it are old school devs.

It will never be a wow killer. However if you like gankfest pvp. If you like guild vrs guild stuff. You could have fun in it.

Lithose · Apr 4, 2021

Kirun said:
I'd love to discuss this topic more with you, but let's move it to another thread or DMs, yeah? I'd rather not continue shitting up the Crowfall thread with stuff that is mostly off-topic and very loosely related to Crowfall.

Cool with me, not sure where it would fit--if there is a general purpose MMO thread still, or you can DM me.

Barab · Apr 5, 2021

Crowfall's combat is fun and is the best part of the game. It's came a long way but still room improvement. The problem with this forum is you cant even have a conversation about a mmo without neckbeards spouting off shit they know nothing about.

jayrebb · Apr 6, 2021

I don't care about low FPS just wanted to hear about good playable sustained frames. I don't need 60 FPS to buy this game.

Re: Crowfall mechanics over the other options in the marketplace for PvP-- At least they actually spent some design hours and money on this game.

Camelot: Unscammed and MO2 can't say the same.

Xerge · Apr 7, 2021

Crowfall be like, you're in the closed beta now!!

...For 30 days then you gotta pay us money.

Nope.

Cybsled · Apr 7, 2021

Action combat can be fun, but the problem with games like BDO is there are too many abilities and inputs and requires the user to be a classically trained pianist to manage all the fucking keys. That’s a problem for tab target MMOs as well, but action makes it worse because clicking abilities isn’t even a viable option.

jayrebb · Apr 7, 2021

Kharzette said:
Kirun is right I am old and I most definitely do not like "skill" based combat. To me, when I see RPG, I think of systems where my character stats are the determining factor of a battle's outcome. That and a bit of dice rolling.

Bits of action can be ok for me, such as DAOC style reactives.

Crowfall is a DAOC style objective game, right?

Kharzette · Apr 7, 2021

From what I remember of the design early days, it was a seasonal keep / relic style thing with the winners taking a slight advantage into the next season.

It is a solid idea, trying to prevent the usual server rot where the losing side all quit or join the winning faction.

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Crowfall

Kharzette

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