Crowfall

Tuco

Tuco

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Draegan_sl said:
If there isn't any equipment loss, there really is no difference between this game and any other shitty MMO pvp game.
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Totally disagree. If you can only accrue wealth by going away from your keep/city/house, collecting some resource somehow, then transporting it back to a crafter/bank/merchant/resource sink, and during transportation/collection that resource can be taken then you have a good PvP system without having equipment loss.

ArcheAge has this, but it's too easy to transport resources under the radar and most of the ways you can transport resources can be done in peace zones.
 
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Draegan_sl

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Sounds like a carebear pvp game to me, just like every other MMO. You have a game where you risk nothing outside the current activity you're engaging in. PVP in instanced battleground games (WOW/Rift/SWTOR etc) is all about winning the match. When you die, you risk losing points. In Archeage, you risk minutes, hours or days worth of carebear gathering in safe zones.

That can be a perfectly fun game and it's not better or worse. It's a style of play and I'm sure Crowfall will have varying levels of risk and loss inside campaigns. You could very well have a game where you don't drop equipment.

I for one want to play a game where losing in PVP means I don't just ress and jump back into the fight and zerg it up without any consideration. Engaging in a fight should have more weight.
 
Vitality

Vitality

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Draegan_sl said:
Sounds like a carebear pvp game to me, just like every other MMO. You have a game where you risk nothing outside the current activity you're engaging in. PVP in instanced battleground games (WOW/Rift/SWTOR etc) is all about winning the match. When you die, you risk losing points. In Archeage, you risk minutes, hours or days worth of carebear gathering in safe zones.

That can be a perfectly fun game and it's not better or worse. It's a style of play and I'm sure Crowfall will have varying levels of risk and loss inside campaigns. You could very well have a game where you don't drop equipment.

I for one want to play a game where losing in PVP means I don't just ress and jump back into the fight and zerg it up without any consideration. Engaging in a fight should have more weight.
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You're saying that now. But the first time you get spawn camped and stripped and only spawn with a stick to fight back you'll sing a different tune I bet.

There's balance to be struck in weighted pvp risk. Spawn distance needs to be fairly large (think ESO). % chance to drop a piece of equipped gear and 100% open inventory loot on death seems reasonable to me.

I'd rather land value be the primary risk/reward factor. Like if Archeages housing system was claimable via PVP. Would have been a better game then.

I have large doubts that there will be much support for super risky pvp with Todd and Gordon tbh. For fucks sake their first pvp model pitch was Bloodstone Tree peacetime window drudgery.
 
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Draegan_sl

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Of course I'll be singing a different toon. You think I'll be saying this game great! I just lost all my stuff.

Actually I'll probably be pissed off and get back into things just like the times I got gate camped in EVE.

I know you guys like resource wars where gear eventually gets inflated, but I want a PvP game with consequences. There are plenty of "safe" PvP games out there.
 
Srathor

Srathor

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I would love a system where you lose some gear. Full loot would be annoying, but 50% of your inventory and a random piece of equipped gear could be interesting. People who die/graveyard rush would go broke quickly. Also remember they are talking about gear losing durability and repairs costing gear permanent durability loss. No gear is eternal. Well except for the chance that they will make unbreakable artifact gear for major rewards or something.

The devil is in the details though, it is supposed to be fun to play not a boot on your neck forever.
 
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Clug

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UO was fun with equipment loss upon death.

Why was it fun? Because everyone worth a shit had a shit ton of gear stored in their forge/castle/house somewhere.

Make it so you lose gear, yes, but also make it so you have a lot of backup gear somewhere else saved up.
 
Vitality

Vitality

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Clug_sl said:
UO was fun with equipment loss upon death.

Why was it fun? Because everyone worth a shit had a shit ton of gear stored in their forge/castle/house somewhere.

Make it so you lose gear, yes, but also make it so you have a lot of backup gear somewhere else saved up.
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Until they came out with Trammel (protected peace time area and storage)
 
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DeadAgain!?_sl

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Clug_sl said:
UO was fun with equipment loss upon death.

Why was it fun? Because everyone worth a shit had a shit ton of gear stored in their forge/castle/house somewhere.

Make it so you lose gear, yes, but also make it so you have a lot of backup gear somewhere else saved up.
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Plus you really needed to pick your battles.
 
Grim1

Grim1

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Vitality_sl said:
Until they came out with Trammel (protected peace time area and storage)
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Unfortunately, I missed out on the UO experience. So am somewhat hazy on the wherefores and whys, etc.

So a question, why did the devs create the protected peace time you mention? I ask becuase even though I love the idea of full loot pvp, I get the feeling that it is a revenue killer for games. Did UO do that to keep the "noob / carebear" money flowing in?

Is a full loot pvp mmo viable in the market place? I would hope so, but perhaps the UO experience (and others) has colored that perspective in the minds of the devs who make these types of games.
 
Sylas

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Grim1_sl said:
Unfortunately, I missed out on the UO experience. So am somewhat hazy on the wherefores and whys, etc.

So a question, why did the devs create the protected peace time you mention? I ask becuase even though I love the idea of full loot pvp, I get the feeling that it is a revenue killer for games. Did UO do that to keep the "noob / carebear" money flowing in?

Is a full loot pvp mmo viable in the market place? I would hope so, but perhaps the UO experience (and others) has colored that perspective in the minds of the devs who make these types of games.
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The story of trammel and why they added it was posted in this thread and on the Crowfall forums since it was done by gordon, the executive producer of this game.

The what, second, maybe 3rd now largest subscription mmo is full loot pvp, eve online. Its a game they say they are modelling cf on and a game that, if they are even half as successful as then they will be golden. but it seems more like this is shadowbane with resets than eve.

I don't really fault them for peace time windows especially if they aren't going to have regional servers, even eve is going towards something like this.
 
Lithose

Lithose

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Clug_sl said:
Why was it fun? Because everyone worth a shit had a shit ton of gear stored in their forge/castle/house somewhere.

Make it so you lose gear, yes, but also make it so you have a lot of backup gear somewhere else saved up.
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Yeah, this added another layer onto UO and made it more about strategy then minute to minute stuff. As Draegan said, longer term consequences became something you had to weight. Every fight cost resources, losses cost a bit--was it worth it to engage and have to resupply? It not only forced you to think about fighting, it also forced you to keep open relationships with Smiths, resource gathering professions, potion makers and hosts of other people. (You could technically do it yourself--too. But it was enormously time consuming.) That extra strategic layer for older players that liked long term aspects of play, I think, was very engaging. It was, however, brutal for newer players.
 
Lithose

Lithose

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Tuco_sl said:
I'm not a fan of equipment loot on death because I don't want to deal with extra armor sets / re-equipping / looting other players, but I definitely want the winners to win and the losers to lose. I'm a fan of gold and some inventory loss on death.
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As Draeg said, the biggest advantage to Equip loss on death, is rewarding strategic thinking. Guilds with armories where they have caches of swords and armor? Will have huge advantages in terms of reequipping and getting men back out onto the field, or building up a counter attack. That kind of reward for completed resources? Is that makes crafters an essential part of an actual "in campaign" war effort, and not just some alts you grind up to slap together a new piece of equipment when you upgrade.

That is the largest difference, I think, when you lose equipment vs when you don't. Crafters become required to put time in tomaintain combat effectiveness,notjust increase it. In a way crafters take on a more direct "support" role, than they would otherwise . Tying resource loss to direct combat losses? Creates a different feel for the game. It can be a good thing if equipment is stream lined. It doesn't really work in games where equipment is extremely difficult to get.
 
kaid

kaid

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The easier it is to lose gear the more useful craftspeople are. Its one reason crafting in most MMO goes very stale because if nothing ever leaves the economy there is no reason to get more than one of just about anything. Have items drop on death have item destruction and as long as its not super punishing to get geared back up again people will be fine with it.
 
Tuco

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
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Lithose_sl said:
As Draeg said, the biggest advantage to Equip loss on death, is rewarding strategic thinking. Guilds with armories where they have caches of swords and armor? Will have huge advantages in terms of reequipping and getting men back out onto the field, or building up a counter attack. That kind of reward for completed resources? Is that makes crafters an essential part of an actual "in campaign" war effort, and not just some alts you grind up to slap together a new piece of equipment when you upgrade.

That is the largest difference, I think, when you lose equipment vs when you don't. Crafters become required to put time in tomaintain combat effectiveness,notjust increase it. In a way crafters take on a more direct "support" role, than they would otherwise . Tying resource loss to direct combat losses? Creates a different feel for the game. It can be a good thing if equipment is stream lined. It doesn't really work in games where equipment is extremely difficult to get.
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Maybe I don't want equip loss on death because as a leader of a very organized guild I don't want to deal with that bullshit. I don't want to have people delegated to organize armories. I don't want to deal with people being lazy and unprepared and showing up naked and useless. I don't want to have to deal with getting wiped then spending 15-30 minutes waiting for people to sort through all their gear. I don't want to have to win a big victory and wait while being sort through the remains trying to pick up stuff and equip themselves. I just want people to equip themselves, get their characters finished and then we can fight.

I see the benefit and depth added of equip loot on a small scale, but my laziness as a raid leader comes out when I think about how it extends to a larger scale.
 
kaid

kaid

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One way to mitigate that though is not have gear quite as hard to come by or acquire as what you see in MMO's like wow. Where having some losses is not a huge deal. Also remember unless you were totally rolled and did a full wipe you probably got nearly as much loot from the opponents as they did from you. It also seems like they have different levels of item loss on death depending on the campaign some with more some with less some.
 
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