Diablo 4 / IV / IIII / Fore / Cope / Seethe

Cinge

Cinge

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Mist said:
Skill use in D2 was bad too. Mostly spammed 2 or 3 skills, tops.

The thing with D4 is that there are a lot interesting skills, at least in the Rogue skill tree, that will never get used because there isn't room on the bars.

It could just be a Rogue problem though, I didn't bother to play any of the other classes as they don't really interest me.
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So basically its diablo. As that has been the case for most of the franchise. I mean i guess in d2 you could theoretically use anything you learned, but in reality you used what you put points into. I don't mind minimal skills, 5-10 preferably. I don't need 2 hotbars worth of key bindings to play a game. Get enough of that in MMOs. Hell some of my favorite builds in d3 were lazy relaxing spin to win, where you hold 1 button down and push 2-3 others for buffs and just go. Or the cheese with auto cast, or the hilarious chicken thing WD had for a while.
 
Mist

Mist

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Cinge said:
So basically its diablo. As that has been the case for most of the franchise. I mean i guess in d2 you could theoretically use anything you learned, but in reality you used what you put points into. I don't mind minimal skills, 5-10 preferably. I don't need 2 hotbars worth of key bindings to play a game. Get enough of that in MMOs. Hell some of my favorite builds in d3 were lazy relaxing spin to win, where you hold 1 button down and push 2-3 others for buffs and just go. Or the cheese with auto cast, or the hilarious chicken thing WD had for a while.
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Yes, I agree, 5-10 preferably. The current six is less than 10. 8 would probably be perfect for Rogue, or a specialization that allowed you to switch from a ranged hotbar to a melee hotbar.
 
Vorph

Vorph

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6 with a dedicated ultimate slot would be fine.

Also, controller > m/k for everything except dicking around in your inventory. And the sorc build I talked about, because mashing 5 different buttons on a controller is not fun. But for normal builds it was no contest.
 
zombiewizardhawk

zombiewizardhawk

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OU Ariakas said:
Off the top of my head:

Currency is used for both transactions and crafting
Support gems change skills in interesting ways; new ones added all the time
League mechanics push all kinds of boundaries that other games won't even touch.
Endgame bosses change yearly in a whole new way and always come with a different way to manipulate their late game content (maps).
Speaking of maps, tons of different layouts to choose from so that if you get bored you can go onto another one.
Uniques that are build defining and change the way select skills work in interesting ways.
Target farming of divination cards and/or bosses with static loot tables.
Every goddamn item is tradeable which means earning currency in any form always moves you closer to whatever goal you have chosen.
Oh, and for you all talking about "a few builds that everyone plays or they cannot do anything"

So again, what has D4 done to innovate on the genre with all of Blizzards time and money. What one thing is amazing and needs to be in every ARPG going forward?

Even then there are issues with POE, shit, Deathwing Deathwing is probably rolling his eyes that I am defending it in this thread because of the shit I give it in its own thread. But it is 10x more ambitious than this game and that is the worst indictment of D4, that it is good to really good.
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1. I think i'm part of the 0.0001% who does any form of crafting with the currency that isn't deterministic master crafting with guaranteed results but ok. How is using chaos orbs to gamble on an item any different from using gold to gamble items? Because it's not called gold so it's better and innovative?
2. 99% of support gems are "+ gooder" the others are "+ automatic". Does having 200 gems that give + damage to certain different skills equal innovation and quality? If D4 put 30 options for + damage on each skill instead of 2 or whatever, would that please you? Also, almost every skill has its set of support skills and if you deviate from them then you are actively gimping yourself to say "but muh variety".
3. Most league mechanics generally just add monster density or monster durability, or else people mostly hate them/avoid them.
4. So a game that's been out for 10 years changes endgame sometimes and that's somehow a one up on a game that hasn't even released yet because the game that hasn't released hasn't done it? What?
5. Ok, a game has been out for 10+ years and now has a wide variety of maps that you can spam out while fighting the same mobs on different backgrounds. By the way, for a long time there were a literal handful of maps, and then after many years there were a couple handfuls. Did you get early access to the endgame of d4 to know how many tilesets you'll be able to fight the mobs on and how many different bosses there will be?
6. Definitely unique to PoE and nothing any other game has ever done. Changing skills with equipment? Unheard of in any game except PoE!
7. "target farming of div cards" lol. Just run 80,000,000 burial chambers and pray to rngesus the entire time and you might, maybe, get enough div cards for a headhunter. As far as static loot tables, that's not unique to PoE and I don't even think it's a good thing necessarily, especially if you're trying to use layout variety on the different maps as a selling point since that's directly counter to static loot table farming one piece of content.
8. Just because PoE has a billion skills that do the same thing with different animations doesn't mean it's some sort of crazy build diversity. Like I said before, most of the skills do the same thing just with a different animation/graphic.

What has d4 done to innovate the genre? Fuck should I know, the game isn't even out yet. And why does the genre need to be "innovated"? I want a game where I can kill a bunch of shit and have items drop that I use to kill a bunch more shit. I don't care if they find a way to implement "lol run around in here and make sure none of the mobs see you while you open up chests and avoid fighting at all costs while we spam you with 10,000 annoying AF lines of dialogue" league or an "Lol come in here and make sure you never get hit by these mobs or traps for 45 minutes" dungeon chaining league. That's backwards progress as far as i'm concerned. "Hey look at us, innovating by making you play a game style other than ARPG in our ARPG game" so cool, much wowe.

D3 adds shit in each of their leagues, too. I couldn't give examples because I haven't played it in a while but I can say reading the thread with everyone talking about this most recent league, I have no fucking clue what any of the shit they're talking about is since the last time I played it so they obviously are adding things to the game. D4 probably definitely won't do that tho, it's just gonna full release with the content that was in the beta and that's the entire game and when you get level 26 it's going to pop up a big "gotcha" and then delete your char and stream alphabetpeople things for you, cause it's Blizzard, amirite?
 
Penance

Penance

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Araxen said:
It's funny seeing all the POEtards sperging in this thread. Quality entertainment while at work.
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lolwut

We're all gamers here. We all want D4 to be good. Nobody who loves POE came into D4 thinking it was going to even be remotely similar. I have yet to pass judgement on the game cause I haven't played but everything I hear is cope in disguise. Once again I reserve judgement for end game and the circular gameplay they've designed. But lets not all be sucking Blizzards sheenis just yet.

At least when most of us were praising Blizz for Dragonflight we were giving concrete examples on systems and gameplay loops they had improved instead of just spouting pure retard nonsense of "we wuz havin funz"

"LOL ITS NOT BLIZZARDS JOB TO INNOVATE JUST SLURP THEIR AMAZING RGB POLISH YOUR POETARDS"

"THEY HAVE INVESTORS TO ANSWER TO"

Yes please let me rush to play their business model wrapped in a game. Such high praise.



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Deathwing

Deathwing

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Mist said:
Yes, I agree, 5-10 preferably. The current six is less than 10. 8 would probably be perfect for Rogue, or a specialization that allowed you to switch from a ranged hotbar to a melee hotbar.
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In what context do you want to be pressing 5-10 buttons? Here's my typical build loadout.

Dedicated move on LMB. If the game supports putting an ability here and it functionally makes sense, even better. PoE does that with some limited success. D3 does not, and from the sounds of it, D4 does not either.
Clearing skill on RMB.
Movement skill on Q.
Tough rare dps skill on W.
Boss dps skill on E.
Blink skill on R.
Defensive cooldown on T.

And this across all ARPGs, not just PoE. I find if I have more skills bound, I just forget to press them. You are pressing LMB, RMB, and Q most of the time, yes. I don't know if pressing the others frequently would be that fun. But I also hate 1-2 combo skills.
 
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Mist

Mist

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Well, D4 Rogue is built around builders and spenders, so there's 2 buttons already. Then you've got an ultimate ability that seems fairly important. So you really only have 3 additional slots. And Rogues have both melee and ranged weapons, but with the limited skill slots, it seems like you'd never really use both.

Moving the Ult to a dedicated button and giving you 4 abilities just seems way better.
 
Vorph

Vorph

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Mist said:
Well, D4 Rogue is built around builders and spenders, so there's 2 buttons already.
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I certainly hope its like D3 and any build that still uses a builder at max level is considered shit tier.
 
Deathwing

Deathwing

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Builders and spenders are worst kind of 1-2 combo skill and should be "innovated" into the trash can.
 
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Chersk

Chersk

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Penance said:
lolwut

We're all gamers here. We all want D4 to be good. Nobody who loves POE came into D4 thinking it was going to even be remotely similar. I have yet to pass judgement on the game cause I haven't played but everything I hear is cope in disguise. Once again I reserve judgement for end game and the circular gameplay they've designed. But lets not all be sucking Blizzards sheenis just yet.

At least when most of us were praising Blizz for Dragonflight we were giving concrete examples on systems and gameplay loops they had improved instead of just spouting pure retard nonsense of "we wuz havin funz"

"LOL ITS NOT BLIZZARDS JOB TO INNOVATE JUST SLURP THEIR AMAZING RGB POLISH YOUR POETARDS"

"THEY HAVE INVESTORS TO ANSWER TO"

Yes please let me rush to play their business model wrapped in a game. Such high praise.



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Yeeeaaaahhh that’s not all I’ve said here.

Again, best in class combat, art, animations, sound, music, etc. I’m not sure what else there is to talk about except yeah you can farm dohickies in PoE and turn them into hoodigs so you can then do some quarter baked mini game for gear.
 
Penance

Penance

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Chersk said:
Yeeeaaaahhh that’s not all I’ve said here.

Again, best in class combat, art, animations, sound, music, etc. I’m not sure what else there is to talk about except yeah you can farm dohickies in PoE and turn them into hoodigs so you can then do some quarter baked mini game for gear.
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I know you were praising other things in the game, I was just being a reductionist.

1679362467625.png
 
zombiewizardhawk

zombiewizardhawk

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I guess... Care to elaborate the point so I can reach up and grab it? Only thing I can think of is that your 'point' was everyone who wasn't bashing the game was just a retard lying about enjoying it and having fun but I like to think that they're not a bunch of shills being paid by Blizzard to come promote d4 in these forums, and actually did have fun with it.
 
Kirun

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Ortega said:
You guys do realize you're your own worst enemies? You're advocating for less build choice because you perceive it as a burden, because you feel compelled to have the VERY BEST BUILD.

I don't know if you guys realize this, but it's parallel to life. Sure someone could come in and compel you to do the exact right thing for your life every single given day, but humans don't enjoy that all to much do they?
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Why do you feel compelled to have the VERY BEST BUILD in D4? Just put 1 point into everything and then you'll be diverse as fuck.
OU Ariakas said:
Do you know why people go back to POE over and over? Because they innovate every goddamn quarter. Sometimes it is great, sometimes it is absolute shit; but it is ALWAYS new and different. This game cannot even shake the feeling that it isn't that much different from a game released 11 fucking years ago. Not a single bit of innovation in 11 years.
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People go back to PoE because they add new/interesting SYSTEMS to interact with every 3ish months. Some are obviously more interesting and fun than others, but I'm certainly not coming back to PoE for the amazing "gameplay" or "build diversity". I come back every few leagues because of all the new shit to interact with.
Deathwing said:
Flasks? A multitude of vaal skills? Guard skills? Blink skills?
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"Use when flask is full". Most builds use one Vaal skill max and the time between uses is pretty massive by ARPG terms. Blink skills? Yeah, should I take flame dash or shield charge? Phew, what a choice!
zombiewizardhawk said:
1. I think i'm part of the 0.0001% who does any form of crafting with the currency that isn't deterministic master crafting with guaranteed results but ok. How is using chaos orbs to gamble on an item any different from using gold to gamble items? Because it's not called gold so it's better and innovative?
2. 99% of support gems are "+ gooder" the others are "+ automatic". Does having 200 gems that give + damage to certain different skills equal innovation and quality? If D4 put 30 options for + damage on each skill instead of 2 or whatever, would that please you? Also, almost every skill has its set of support skills and if you deviate from them then you are actively gimping yourself to say "but muh variety".
3. Most league mechanics generally just add monster density or monster durability, or else people mostly hate them/avoid them.
4. So a game that's been out for 10 years changes endgame sometimes and that's somehow a one up on a game that hasn't even released yet because the game that hasn't released hasn't done it? What?
5. Ok, a game has been out for 10+ years and now has a wide variety of maps that you can spam out while fighting the same mobs on different backgrounds. By the way, for a long time there were a literal handful of maps, and then after many years there were a couple handfuls. Did you get early access to the endgame of d4 to know how many tilesets you'll be able to fight the mobs on and how many different bosses there will be?
6. Definitely unique to PoE and nothing any other game has ever done. Changing skills with equipment? Unheard of in any game except PoE!
7. "target farming of div cards" lol. Just run 80,000,000 burial chambers and pray to rngesus the entire time and you might, maybe, get enough div cards for a headhunter. As far as static loot tables, that's not unique to PoE and I don't even think it's a good thing necessarily, especially if you're trying to use layout variety on the different maps as a selling point since that's directly counter to static loot table farming one piece of content.
8. Just because PoE has a billion skills that do the same thing with different animations doesn't mean it's some sort of crazy build diversity. Like I said before, most of the skills do the same thing just with a different animation/graphic.

What has d4 done to innovate the genre? Fuck should I know, the game isn't even out yet. And why does the genre need to be "innovated"? I want a game where I can kill a bunch of shit and have items drop that I use to kill a bunch more shit. I don't care if they find a way to implement "lol run around in here and make sure none of the mobs see you while you open up chests and avoid fighting at all costs while we spam you with 10,000 annoying AF lines of dialogue" league or an "Lol come in here and make sure you never get hit by these mobs or traps for 45 minutes" dungeon chaining league. That's backwards progress as far as i'm concerned. "Hey look at us, innovating by making you play a game style other than ARPG in our ARPG game" so cool, much wowe.

D3 adds shit in each of their leagues, too. I couldn't give examples because I haven't played it in a while but I can say reading the thread with everyone talking about this most recent league, I have no fucking clue what any of the shit they're talking about is since the last time I played it so they obviously are adding things to the game. D4 probably definitely won't do that tho, it's just gonna full release with the content that was in the beta and that's the entire game and when you get level 26 it's going to pop up a big "gotcha" and then delete your char and stream alphabetpeople things for you, cause it's Blizzard, amirite?
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zombiewizardhawk zombiewizardhawk spittin' truth in this thread.

PoE is the KING at throwing massive amounts of shit at the wall, confusing and convoluting the fuck out of things, and hoping the players take so long to figure the 378 different interacting systems that they never notice only 2 or 3 systems at a time are worth a fuck. The other 374 are a complete waste of time. This oscillates season to season, but that's essentially it in a nutshell.
 
Penance

Penance

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zombiewizardhawk said:
I guess... Care to elaborate the point so I can reach up and grab it? Only thing I can think of is that your 'point' was everyone who wasn't bashing the game was just a retard lying about enjoying it and having fun but I like to think that they're not a bunch of shills being paid by Blizzard to come promote d4 in these forums, and actually did have fun with it.
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I guess my point is fun is subjective as fuck. With all the POE bashing the main thing that gets people coming back is 'fun'. But in order to quantify that into objective reasons we've laid out a few specific systems that make it unique. Does it have to compare to Diablo, absolutely not. I played the shit out of the last season in D3. It was fun as fuck to me. It was fun because it kept me engaged in the loot cycle and upgrade cycle and had decently meaningful endgame progression, if a bit simple.

But I'm not here to defend POE for those who don't like its complexity or convolutedness. Those are reasonable and understandable objections. However to say they haven't innovated the genre when they have one of the most intriguing and engaging crafting systems of any game, beyond even the genre of ARPG, and that's just one thing, is objectively false. And to say that every build boils down to 1 or 2 button presses is also false and reductionist. So I figure if we're all doing it why not join in on the fun.

See we're all having fun. Now go loot me some Lillith sheenus. I'll be playing the next open beta that I don't have to buy a mcfat fuck to get into and then I can truly say if you were all gay this entire time, or if indeed it is me who is gay for having fun in the game.
 
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