DOTA 2
- Thread starter Bels_sl
- Start date
Sutekh
Blackwing Lair Raider
- 7,489
- 106
When talking mid lane, you're not really talking about a character that has a nuke capable of CSing. If anything, I'd say Visage's weakness in mid is that he has to suffer survivability early for damage, his spells cost a lot of mana so he can't out harass, his missile speed is slower than most and he has a low starting damage.
- 11,062
- 2,262
His damage is actually quite good for a ranged hero. His attack animation and projectile speed are fairly shitty though. The way you play Visage mid is mostly by spamming Grave Chill and not using Assumption until 5, Grave Chill mana cost is low and gives you a pretty good edge in terms of last hitting if you use it at the right time, since it slows attackspeed and increases yours by a very large amount, which can also be used to harass hard and make the enemy miss last hits by running away if he's melee. At 6 however he becomes quite scary to fight in a 1vs1 and he can solo kill most heroes assuming correct setup, and you're dead as fuck if the supports come help too. The contrary isn't necessarily true either, ganking a higher lvl visage with lvl 3supports can easily lead to both of them dying to familiar stuns+one assumption each+few autoattacks.
Mind you, it's not a good mid, I was just listing some supports you can play mid fairly decently. If played against a top tier mid by an equal or better skilled player, you will lose. If the other mid isn't the best mid hero possible or if he's a slightly worse player it can be very useful however, because if Visage hits 7 before everyone else, you can go push whatever tower with people and it's like having a laguna blade on a 4secs cooldown in terms of relative health, you will instantly kill supports and drop other heroes very quickly.
I'm no pro, but why is Lich now first ban pretty much? I thought the only change was the xp interaction using sacrifice. Did I miss something?
easy to level support, almost endless mana to harass opponents, don't have to worry about item progression too much, ult does more bounces now
- 11,062
- 2,262
Frost armor is good, ult isn't a big deal but forces people to move in directions they might not want to be going(away from their group etc) and will still sometimes get lucky bounces off creeps and rape someone randomly. Also the huge buff to sacrifice means lich will rarely be too underlvled, and that's a huge plus compared to other supports, which makes his ult more relevant than say witch doctor who will tend to have rank2 ult 50mins in. Definitely not the best lategame support though, but it's similar for a bunch of popular supports like CM.
Meh lich aint a surprise but holy shit why is venomancer in every game now. All they changed were his wards and things hitting through stealth no? i dont get it... probably because of dual lanes and all ;x
- 11,062
- 2,262
Well things hitting stealth/out of sight is a pretty big deal, also his damage went up by quite a large amount, wards aside(but it's obviously lower at low lvl since gale doesn't do dmg at 1). And then yeah, dual lanes, roaming active ganking supports, shit like that.
Finally picks tend to be very fotm based. Minor patches will get people to check the hero again and then they remember that this hero was in fact pretty fucking good in certain lineups so they play those lineups again. Sometimes even no patch does that. SD had several fotm phases for example and has mostly been untouched for a long time besides minor changes. You pick based on your overall strat and strats come and go over time. Look at like the time between TI2 and TI3 and how little furion was picked for a very long period of that year.
how did his damage go up a large amount? all i see is lvl 3 gale doing slightly more damage, lvl 4 doing 30 more... and the venom applying to ward attacks at 50% and doesnt stack with main venom one.
Dandain
Trakanon Raider
- 2,092
- 917
The wards dotting everything is a lot better than you're giving the change credit for - you can place a ward have it shoot one time - and do a decent amount more than 1 shot worth of damage. His harass went way up - especially if you assume that the ward strike has quite a bit longer range than moving up to auto attack. Wards are substantially better in a blob at a tower in doing damage and his lane harass + the natural vision afforded by plague wards. There is also a chance that plague ward strikes can secure kills off his ult - one of the main problems of veno's ult is that if you ult someone but don't have another dot ticking on them - they just run away with 1 hp. Now Ult+gale>lvl1+ a plague ward can apply that killing dot as opposed to only veno himself making a direct attack on the target.
- 11,062
- 2,262
Gale went from 60 to 90 so 400 to 550total damage, Sting went from 12secs to 15secs(was 9secs in 6.77 too was already buffed by 3secs in 6.78). Those are fairly large buffs, granted the 2nd one doesn't increase DPS, but you don't want to autoattack shit more than once anyway so this adds a lot of damage over time. The wards also got a fairly massive increase with the dot even though it doesn't do high DPS, getting hit once by a ward with a maxed sting means you take 150dmg over time. This is mostly annoying for low health targets and is generally annoying as a whole when you get hit by everything(nova+touch+gale) as all those buffs add up to a 100% guaranteed kill on most lower leveled heroes even without any other interaction.
Penance
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
- 5,112
- 4,899
Yea it seems that everyone gets Midas now. Which is funny too because Midas kind of got indirectly nerfed with more and more necros coming out.
And the main reason, lets not forget, why Veno is played isn't because of his damage changes. That was just icing on the top. The most important reason Veno is picked is because of vision. He's still one of the best heroes to give vision in the game. And with the nerf to Sentry Wards, Veno wards become even more important.
And the main reason, lets not forget, why Veno is played isn't because of his damage changes. That was just icing on the top. The most important reason Veno is picked is because of vision. He's still one of the best heroes to give vision in the game. And with the nerf to Sentry Wards, Veno wards become even more important.
Again to me the changes are minor, all you guys are describing are things venom did before already. Which is why im suprised to be seeing in every game that often when he was non-existent before and mostly a joke (remember puppey trying to pick venom vs alliance and how awful that was...)
All I see is that he scales better late game but his early game isnt better, id even say its a bit worse (if u dont factor the change to hitting invisible units, it obviously makes him compete vs weaver and such where as before he was free food)
All I see is that he scales better late game but his early game isnt better, id even say its a bit worse (if u dont factor the change to hitting invisible units, it obviously makes him compete vs weaver and such where as before he was free food)
Zaphid
Trakanon Raider
- 5,862
- 294
If you can't figure out why a hero became popular with no big changes, look at everything else that changed.
Dual lanes, aggressive trilanes got buffed, vision is much more important, his push/counterpush...
Exactly thats what i hinted at initialy that its most likely because of dual lanes where venom is a much better candidate than in trilanes. His push counterpush was always the same, except late game now with the poison on his wards it might be a tad better. Vision has always been important so thats not new.