Gankak
Vyemm Raider
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DOTA 2
- Thread starter Bels_sl
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Uh, they were both amazing games... I wasn't really liking alliances playstyle throughout this tourney, but they played amazingly in both games (with two different playstyles).
Showed variety at least. The only way you could think the games were sub par was if you are a Na'vi fan and are pissed about the result. Alliance fast pushed and won a fast game, then turned around and absorbed early game domination by Na'vi only to stomp them straight up when they reached a couple key items. Kind of funny that people bitch about Alliance playing the split push game and then other people call two entirely different and perfectly executed strats coming from them as a sub par series.
Intrinsic
Person of Whiteness
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I think Na'Vi fucked up Game 2 by not pushing. They had aegis luna, all cooldowns up, and they were pressuring high ground, but they backed. This gave Alch time to farm bkb and Bear Raddiance. After that it was gg.
The two times they pressured base they lost people for no gain or trade. Yeah it looked like they gave up on the pressure too early but they weren't exactly getting good results from their pressure efforts. It kind of seemed like they were never really winning the game despite having pushed all those outer turrets so early. For the most part they left the Alchemist alone to farm (pushed his lane last) and they let the Druid come back from his first blood and early bear loss in fast fashion. So while they were up in gold as a team they were decently behind in levels and the two people they needed to shut down didn't really get stopped at all from accruing their farm or levels.
Sutekh
Blackwing Lair Raider
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They gave away their advantage basically. They took all towers and complete map control AND had a Furion. Literally all they had to do was keep top and mid lane pushed, ward up Dire jungle and farm down dire jungle. Furion pushes bot lane in to the tower continually while the other two lanes push at the same time. They don't have the anti-push to stop it KOTL had just skilled level 3 illuminate when they failed to break highground the first time, especially not at that low level with no items. But instead they took Rosh, failed the mid push, and went back to their jungle and allowed Bulldog to get his radiance up and allowed Loda complete farm still even though they had entire map control.
They didn't even have to try and break high ground or take rax or anything. They could have sat there easily farming jungle get luna 6 slotted, take another Rosh, and win if they wanted. But they did literally the worst possible thing they could have done and concede their complete map control.
Orange is great, unless Navi changes something Orange is just going to fucking roll them. Navi doesn't even deserve to be in the tournament after their last 3 games, The fountain hooking game was just pathetic they should not have won that.
Genjiro
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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I dont get it. They had Furion + wisp and could have ganked the shit out of Loda, but instead pushing the towers without ever using Wisps strength to gank people backfired on them since Alliance started just farming creep waves near their base and then LD got his radiance and such, and it was all downhill from there. Why take the Wisp if you arent going to use his strength at all?
I'm not sure I'm seeing that though. Wisp is first-ban material because the hero has some serious power. Versus other options? Well, that's the fun part.
If it is let to slide though then yeah, take it but for god's sake use it. I guess the idea that it was bait seems obvious in retrospect but I'm not sure it is so easily punished if played well. If you are not going to strat around the wisp though then obviously you should not pick it up. As we've seen it can win games basically but not just as an outlier pick. First and build around it or not at all?
If it is let to slide though then yeah, take it but for god's sake use it. I guess the idea that it was bait seems obvious in retrospect but I'm not sure it is so easily punished if played well. If you are not going to strat around the wisp though then obviously you should not pick it up. As we've seen it can win games basically but not just as an outlier pick. First and build around it or not at all?
I don't think they actually banned out CK either game though right? Maybe I'm wrong. But it seemed Na'Vi were reluctant to use the wisp in its traditional manner. Both games they took towers so early, which is perfect for enabling wisp ganks, they just didn't make good use of it (partly because wisp didn't have a solid gank partner).
A farmed CK would've given Loda's alch a tough time, but instead they pick a carry each game that just can't manfight alch (gyro and luna). The luna was an especially bad pick considering they had lone druid and naga - and we saw how she didn't have a single good ult because illusions/bear tanked so much of the damage every time.
A farmed CK would've given Loda's alch a tough time, but instead they pick a carry each game that just can't manfight alch (gyro and luna). The luna was an especially bad pick considering they had lone druid and naga - and we saw how she didn't have a single good ult because illusions/bear tanked so much of the damage every time.
Louis
Trakanon Raider
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Agreed. At this point I don't see any team having a chance in hell of beating Alliance in a 5 game series.
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The problem with their push in game2 and what they recognized was an issue is they started 5manning more or less at like 10mins, so at 20mins they were all lvl 6-9. That's not good levels, that's actually awful as fuck, but that's the result of 5man pushing without getting kills(had Alliance tried to defend shit they would have died, fed xp to Na'Vi and Na'Vi could have broken high ground). When you say they should have kept pushing, that's with lvl 1 Luna ult, which is complete fucking shit even not counting the bear, illusions or creeps and less than 900hp on 4 out of their 5 heroes. Kotl wasn't high level but kotl+acid spray was enough that it would have taken them a long long time to push in, and when you're pressuring the base like this if you're not getting the tower, it's very easy for the defending team to farm 2 or 3 lanes with a solo hero getting the xp while you share with 5, and rushing to take a fight against a kotl with this low health would have been suicide. They retreated to get Luna to 11+BkB, thinking they could get a Wisp pickoff to prevent Alliance from farming, but that didn't happen, they simply didn't let them, Bulldog was static farming in front of the T3 tower(and you really can't relocate on a Sylla unless he's way overextended since he proxy farms with the bear), Loda was covered by Naga so going on him was a waste of time.
Also to note that Bulldog and Loda both had good farm before the "final" push came. They were already very close to their big items which is why they got them so fast when Na'Vi took a 3mins break to get their shit. Bulldog had what would be considered a decently fast Relic, even though he was first blooded, offlane and against a trilane. They didn't put nearly enough pressure on him but that's the result of 5manning towers everywhere. Loda was similar since he almost had his BKB too during that push, he just needed 3k more. The real issue with Na'Vi is they simply lost the early game. It looked like they were winning cause they pushed all the towers, but all that shit was mostly uncontested(just kotl delaying it) while Alliance focused on getting a few T1 towers back(they had all 3) and farming up.
If they were going to 5man push, they should have drafted enough to break the base. They simply didn't have enough push to do a push strat, and not that good teamfight against Alliance picks. I think game2, like game1, Puppey got outdrafted. Especially those Wisp picks, he got baited into picking Wisps against a support Naga(so she can sit afk behind the carry) twice, and Alliance were well prepared for that shit. Kuroky is a great wisp and yet he couldn't find a single good relocate these 2 games(or well maybe a couple but that's about it).
Also to note that Bulldog and Loda both had good farm before the "final" push came. They were already very close to their big items which is why they got them so fast when Na'Vi took a 3mins break to get their shit. Bulldog had what would be considered a decently fast Relic, even though he was first blooded, offlane and against a trilane. They didn't put nearly enough pressure on him but that's the result of 5manning towers everywhere. Loda was similar since he almost had his BKB too during that push, he just needed 3k more. The real issue with Na'Vi is they simply lost the early game. It looked like they were winning cause they pushed all the towers, but all that shit was mostly uncontested(just kotl delaying it) while Alliance focused on getting a few T1 towers back(they had all 3) and farming up.
If they were going to 5man push, they should have drafted enough to break the base. They simply didn't have enough push to do a push strat, and not that good teamfight against Alliance picks. I think game2, like game1, Puppey got outdrafted. Especially those Wisp picks, he got baited into picking Wisps against a support Naga(so she can sit afk behind the carry) twice, and Alliance were well prepared for that shit. Kuroky is a great wisp and yet he couldn't find a single good relocate these 2 games(or well maybe a couple but that's about it).