Engagement rings

OneofOne · Jun 5, 2013

Ignorance is bliss ain't it? The entire custom was dreamed up by an ad agency. This really is the case of truth being stranger than fiction.

This is an older article, from a guy who wrote some good books on the issue.http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...ngle_page=true

Although it could do little about the state of the economy, N. W. Ayer suggested that through a well-orchestrated advertising and public-relations campaign it could have a significant impact on the "social attitudes of the public at large and thereby channel American spending toward larger and more expensive diamonds instead of "competitive luxuries." Specifically, the Ayer study stressed the need to strengthen the association in the public's mind of diamonds with romance. Since "young men buy over 90% of all engagement rings" it would be crucial to inculcate in them the idea that diamonds were a gift of love: the larger and finer the diamond, the greater the expression of love. Similarly, young women had to be encouraged to view diamonds as an integral part of any romantic courtship.

Since the Ayer plan to romanticize diamonds required subtly altering the public's picture of the way a man courts -- and wins -- a woman, the advertising agency strongly suggested exploiting the relatively new medium of motion pictures. Movie idols, the paragons of romance for the mass audience, would be given diamonds to use as their symbols of indestructible love. In addition, the agency suggested offering stories and society photographs to selected magazines and newspapers which would reinforce the link between diamonds and romance. Stories would stress the size of diamonds that celebrities presented to their loved ones, and photographs would conspicuously show the glittering stone on the hand of a well-known woman. Fashion designers would talk on radio programs about the "trend towards diamonds" that Ayer planned to start. The Ayer plan also envisioned using the British royal family to help foster the romantic allure of diamonds. An Ayer memo said, "Since Great Britain has such an important interest in the diamond industry, the royal couple could be of tremendous assistance to this British industry by wearing diamonds rather than other jewels." Queen Elizabeth later went on a well-publicized trip to several South African diamond mines, and she accepted a diamond from Oppenheimer.

In addition to putting these plans into action, N. W. Ayer placed a series of lush four-color advertisements in magazines that were presumed to mold elite opinion, featuring reproductions of famous paintings by such artists as Picasso, Derain, Dali, and Dufy. The advertisements were intended to convey the idea that diamonds, like paintings, were unique works of art.

Big Phoenix · Jun 5, 2013

OneofOne_sl said:
I'm not sure why you quoted me, and said what you did?

Meant to quote wombat there.

Joeboo · Jun 5, 2013

Look, we all know diamonds are a waste of money, but so is damn near everything we buy. Do you need a 50-inch LED TV to survive? Do you need the computer/phone/tablet you are viewing this site on as a item essential for survival? Is a $5 jumbo cafe mocha from Starbucks part of your essential diet to survive? Who cares, every person here wastes money on something they don't need. People spend a lot of their income on WANTS, and a diamond(and jewelry in general) is just that for many people(men and women).

Sure, if the choice was 100% mine I'd choose not to buy a diamond ring for my wife. But if the choice were 100% hers we wouldn't have thousands upon thousands of dollars worth of computers and AV equipment in our home, she doesn't give a shit about any of that just like I don't give a shit about jewelry. But we both like seeing the other person happy, and giving them gifts that they enjoy. That's kind of a big part of a healthy relationship, compromise and willingness to accept that someone else may value certain things in their life slightly differently than you do.

Go ahead and preach about "I'd never buy a woman _______, or do _________ for a woman", but if you find a woman that you love and care about, you'd do it in a second with no hesitation because seeing her happy is more important than your petty macho BS.

Big Phoenix · Jun 5, 2013

Go ahead and preach about "I'd never buy a woman _______, or do _________ for a woman", but if you find a woman that you love and care about, you'd do it in a second with no hesitation because seeing her happy is more important than your petty macho BS.

Dont put pussy on a pedestal.

Also id like to know what reasoning you people use to compare tangible every day use objects to one whose only use is for representing an abstract idea which is important to only you and the person wearing it.

Famm · Jun 5, 2013

The better underlying issue is that marriage is a one sided shit-sandwich for men and diamonds are just one of the major "fuck you in the asshole while your balls get chopped off" aspects of it. Wait, don't say it, I'm a bitter misogynistic fat pathetic virgin right? Keep telling yourself that, half you dopes will end up in divorce court and a quarter of the rest of you will be in a living nightmare in 20 years wondering what happened to that wonderful woman you couldn't wait to "spoil".

Don't give me that fucking shit about "wanting to" either, none of you saps would make this purchase if the witch told you she didn't care and didn't want one and would rather put a down payment on a house or go on a cruise....IF she told you that and you actually knew you could take the hormonal psychonaut at face value you would drop all pretense of "wanting" to buy her a ring in a fucking heartbeat. You don't want to buy it, you are made to, you "HAVE" to (or else), that's not choice no matter how you rationalize it.

Noodleface in particular, "its better now". I feel bad for you almost. You'll be wishing you had taken FoHrolled's advice and walked on that relationship in very short order.

The Ancient_sl · Jun 5, 2013

Famm_sl said:
The better underlying issue is that marriage is a one sided shit-sandwich for men and diamonds are just one of the major "fuck you in the asshole while your balls get chopped off" aspects of it. Wait, don't say it, I'm a bitter misogynistic fat pathetic virgin right? Keep telling yourself that, half you dopes will end up in divorce court and a quarter of the rest of you will be in a living nightmare in 20 years wondering what happened to that wonderful woman you couldn't wait to "spoil".

Actually, my first thought when reading your starting sentence was that you've clearly been married before.

OneofOne · Jun 5, 2013

joeboo_sl said:
Go ahead and preach about "I'd never buy a woman _______, or do _________ for a woman", but if you find a woman that you love and care about, you'd do it in a second with no hesitation because seeing her happy is more important than your petty macho BS.

Maybe you should read a thread before commenting on it. My wife never wanted a diamond ring, she agreed it was a complete waste of money. We bought a house instead.

Also, lol for comparing a tv or any other electronic to a diamond ring.

lindz · Jun 5, 2013

There are people that spend thousands of dollars on bags and shoes as well. Whatever floats your boat. Personally I get a lot more use out of my ring (have worn it every day for 8.5 years and will wear it forever more) than the people who waste their money on that sort of stuff.

Big Phoenix · Jun 6, 2013

lindz_sl said:
There are people that spend thousands of dollars on bags and shoes as well. Whatever floats your boat. Personally I get a lot more use out of my ring (have worn it every day for 8.5 years and will wear it forever more) than the people who waste their money on that sort of stuff.

Red herring.

OneofOne · Jun 6, 2013

Tell me Lindz how the expectation of buying a diamond ring for proposal by, well, just about everyone, is the same as buying an overpriced handbag or pair of shoes. How many people have told you you're cheap, or don't really love your husband, because you haven't bought one. I'm really curious.

Soygen · Jun 6, 2013

lindz_sl said:
There are people that spend thousands of dollars on bags and shoes as well. Whatever floats your boat. Personally I get a lot more use out of my ring (have worn it every day for 8.5 years and will wear it forever more) than the people who waste their money on that sort of stuff.

Except there is anactualuse for a bag and shoes. The ring is simply decorative. I'm not jumping on the 'don't ever buy a diamond!' train, but that's a shitty comparison.

Eomer · Jun 6, 2013

Tenks_sl said:
Official set of items required to go on your soapbox rants about carbon and stupidity:

(a) Picture proof your wife is not a hobgoblin.
(b) Bank statements proving you had the money to buy an expensive ring and chose not to

Well, I'm not getting married or engaged any time soon, but I have posted picks of my current special lady friend who Drinsic certified as "not fat" and the one time the topic came up she was pretty adamant she wants nothing to do with a diamond for an engagement ring for similar reasons as me (conflict diamonds, intrinsically valueless, etc). She wanted something "antique looking" and mentioned a couple other gemstones she liked, not sure what metal for the ring itself. No idea how much something like what she wants would cost, but regardless, she's not after a huge diamond or spending 5 figures on a ring or something ridiculous. Shit, she got pissed when I wouldn't accept cash when I booked a flight for her, or when I sneakily bought her an expensive sleeping pad for camping (it has an R value of 6 and weighs like half a pound!).

So I guess I'm lucky enough to have found one of those one in a million chicks. I don't have overly strong feelings in terms of judging others for wanting a diamond engagement ring. I think it's fucking stupid and wasteful, but I don't think it's fair to judge someone's entire personality or virtue as a person based on that single issue. Just about everyone has their own stupid shit like they like to waste money, time or energy on for poor reasons that they've convinced themselves of. My woman's vice is being all in to organic and local food. So long as she keeps cooking me awesome meals with it, I ain't saying shit. I like fast cars and motorcycles, despite their having no marginal utility advantage over cheaper models that can possibly justify their cost. I spend a lot of money on recreational equipment and clothing (skis, bikes, camping equipment and so on) that I probably don't use enough to justify. I might wear a suite three or four times a year, but when I buy a suit it's a fairly expensive Canali or similar. Sue me I guess.

Myst_sl said:
i know deep down inside, any woman would enjoy a diamond ring.

That's not true at all. I'd say that a pretty significant portion of women these days don't give a shit about diamonds. Whether it's 10% or 30% I have no idea, but a lot of girls I know think they're ridiculous.

Famm_sl said:
Don't give me that fucking shit about "wanting to" either, none of you saps would make this purchase if the witch told you she didn't care and didn't want one and would rather put a down payment on a house or go on a cruise....IF she told you that and you actually knew you could take the hormonal psychonaut at face value you would drop all pretense of "wanting" to buy her a ring in a fucking heartbeat. You don't want to buy it, you are made to, you "HAVE" to (or else), that's not choice no matter how you rationalize it.

Yeah, I don't really agree with this either. I like making my woman happy. If a 5-10 thousand dollar diamond ring is going to send her over the moon when I ask her to marry me, then that's the cost of doing business I guess. Granted my financial situation is different than most people (but not necessarily relative to people on these boards, most here are making pretty good money it seems), so that colors things as it wouldn't necessarily be a choice between the ring and being able to go on a cruise, nicer honeymoon or whatever else.

Easy come, easy go.

Soygen_sl said:
Except there is an actual use for a bag and shoes. The ring is simply decorative. I'm not jumping on the 'don't ever buy a diamond!' train, but that's a shitty comparison.

I don't think so. A 5 dollar canvas bag is every bit as functional as a $3,000 Vuitton one, or however you spell it. Buying expensive hand bags and purses and shit in my opinion is really little different than wanting an expensive engagement ring. They're both conspicuous consumption that serve to advertise your ability to spend lots of money on prestige items.

Joeboo · Jun 6, 2013

Soygen_sl said:
Except there is anactualuse for a bag and shoes. The ring is simply decorative. I'm not jumping on the 'don't ever buy a diamond!' train, but that's a shitty comparison.

There is very little actual use for a $2000 Louis Vuitton purse, at that point you are paying for a purely decorative item. Same for a Rolex watch. There are equivalent items that serve the base purpose of those items that are 99% cheaper. Once you get to the point that you are spending THOUSANDS of dollars on something that you wear, or a fashion accessory, it's all 100% for decorative purposes. No one buys a Rolex watch simply because they have a need to know what time it is. They are all luxury, decorative items, just like a ring.

Just because a woman wants a diamond ring doesn't mean she is some irrational money-grubber with no common sense. I bought one for my now wife, and my wife already owned a home, has a nice 401K, nice savings, etc. I paid for her ring in cash, we paid for our small wedding and reception with no help from any family, she wanted to skip taking a honeymoon so we could remodel our kitchen instead, which was fine by me. She's far from bad with money, but she wanted a ring, and I was fine with that. If you can afford it, why not? I'd honestly rather spend 5 grand on a ring she's going to wear every day for the rest of her life than 5 grand on a vacation that is over in 2 weeks. There are a lot of things that you can waste money on that aren't necessities in life, a ring that gets worn every single day is hardly the worst thing on the list.

Izo · Jun 6, 2013

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good

Frenzied Wombat · Jun 6, 2013

Eomer_sl said:
Well, I'm not getting married or engaged any time soon, but I have posted picks of my current special lady friend who Drinsic certified as "not fat" and the one time the topic came up she was pretty adamant she wants nothing to do with a diamond for an engagement ring for similar reasons as me (conflict diamonds, intrinsically valueless, etc). She wanted something "antique looking" and mentioned a couple other gemstones she liked, not sure what metal for the ring itself. No idea how much something like what she wants would cost, but regardless, she's not after a huge diamond or spending 5 figures on a ring or something ridiculous. Shit, she got pissed when I wouldn't accept cash when I booked a flight for her, or when I sneakily bought her an expensive sleeping pad for camping (it has an R value of 6 and weighs like half a pound!).

So I guess I'm lucky enough to have found one of those one in a million chicks. I don't have overly strong feelings in terms of judging others for wanting a diamond engagement ring. I think it's fucking stupid and wasteful, but I don't think it's fair to judge someone's entire personality or virtue as a person based on that single issue. Just about everyone has their own stupid shit like they like to waste money, time or energy on for poor reasons that they've convinced themselves of. My woman's vice is being all in to organic and local food. So long as she keeps cooking me awesome meals with it, I ain't saying shit. I like fast cars and motorcycles, despite their having no marginal utility advantage over cheaper models that can possibly justify their cost. I spend a lot of money on recreational equipment and clothing (skis, bikes, camping equipment and so on) that I probably don't use enough to justify. I might wear a suite three or four times a year, but when I buy a suit it's a fairly expensive Canali or similar. Sue me I guess.

That's not true at all. I'd say that a pretty significant portion of women these days don't give a shit about diamonds. Whether it's 10% or 30% I have no idea, but a lot of girls I know think they're ridiculous.

Yeah, I don't really agree with this either. I like making my woman happy. If a 5-10 thousand dollar diamond ring is going to send her over the moon when I ask her to marry me, then that's the cost of doing business I guess. Granted my financial situation is different than most people (but not necessarily relative to people on these boards, most here are making pretty good money it seems), so that colors things as it wouldn't necessarily be a choice between the ring and being able to go on a cruise, nicer honeymoon or whatever else.

Easy come, easy go.

I don't think so. A 5 dollar canvas bag is every bit as functional as a $3,000 Vuitton one, or however you spell it. Buying expensive hand bags and purses and shit in my opinion is really little different than wanting an expensive engagement ring. They're both conspicuous consumption that serve to advertise your ability to spend lots of money on prestige items.

You live in Canada, chicks in general are quite a bit less traditional and materialistic. Hell, when I lived in Montreal the vast majority of French chicks didn't even want to get married, let alone believe in engagement rings. Come down to the US, particularly the southern US, and chicks are all about rings and getting married. If she's 27 and hasn't been married yet she's basically in the minority and verging on spinster status.. I seriously debate your claim that "a significant amount of women these days don't give a shit about diamonds". It certainly varies on region and culture, but I guaranfucking-T you that while in some places her vocalized desire may be muted by environment and cultural upbringing, the vast majority of chicks love diamonds..

P.S: I also personally blame the Bravo network for reinforcing this diamond loving\big wedding mentality. Bridezillas, The Real Housewives of XXXX, etc all portray women as something to be put on a pedestal whose divine right is to be spoiled by her man. This is what young girls are watching these days as role models. Sad.

Joeboo · Jun 6, 2013

Izo_sl said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good

also see: Apple

They have perfected that art

Kirun · Jun 6, 2013

Sure, if the choice was 100% mine I'd choose not to buy a diamond ring for my wife. But if the choice were 100% hers we wouldn't have thousands upon thousands of dollars worth of computers and AV equipment in our home, she doesn't give a shit about any of that just like I don't give a shit about jewelry. But we both like seeing the other person happy, and giving them gifts that they enjoy.That's kind of a big part of a healthy relationship, compromiseand willingness to accept that someone else may value certain things in their life slightly differently than you do.

This. There are just as many things that men perceive "value" on that women find just as worthless as men find diamonds. I don'tneeda new smartphone every 6 months, yet I alwayswantone.

Phoenix and OneofOne sound like a bunch of bitter, single men. To be fair to them, however, there are some differences in women. If you're with a chick pulling the "If youreallyloved me, you'd buy me the 12,000$ ring!" bullshit, you need to get the fuck out. They are looking for a status symbol and nothing else. However, plenty of women just want it as a symbol of your love/devotion/relationship/etc. Even more want it as another sense of "security". Dropping 3-4k on those types of women? Big deal.

Eomer · Jun 6, 2013

Frenzied Wombat_sl said:
I seriously debate your claim that "a significant amount of women these days don't give a shit about diamonds". It certainly varies on region and culture, but I guaranfucking-T you that while in some places her vocalized desire may be muted by environment and cultural upbringing, the vast majority of chicks love diamonds..

Well, like you said maybe it's cause I'm a Canuck and women are different up here. I wouldn't disagree that the majority of women like diamonds, and specifically said it was in the low double digits percentage wise. In my group of bros only two have gotten married so far. One wanted and got a big rock, the other didn't. So we're batting 50/50 so far!

Frenzied Wombat_sl said:
Hell, when I lived in Montreal the vast majority of French chicks didn't even want to get married, let alone believe in engagement rings.

Oh yeah, Quebec in general is very different from the rest of Canada, let alone the US. I think 60% of kids there are born out of wedlock now, give or take.

lindz · Jun 6, 2013

Meh, maybe it is a cultural thing. I'm Canadian too. I like my engagement ring, it is pretty and it has a lot of sentimental meaning but I could care less about owning any other frivolous shit. My husband was making fun of me for not having bought a new pair of casual shoes in like 8 years or something...

If he wanted a diamond ring and people told me I was cheap for not buying one... I would ignore them and go back to enjoying my much more useful electronics. But that's just me, I don't really care about those kind of things. If we were to be getting married now, after having a life together and financial obligations I would probably look for alternatives because it really bothers me to spend money on myself, let alone something with no practical use that I would probably get for cheaper.

OneofOne · Jun 6, 2013

Izo_sl said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veblen_good

Sorta. Diamonds are really a commodity on a whole different level. The woman who came up with the slogan "Diamonds are Forever", in 1947?

N.W. Ayer conducted extensive surveys of consumer attitudes and found that most Americans thought diamonds were a luxury for the ultra-wealthy. Women wanted their men to spend money on ?a washing machine, or a new car, anything but an engagement ring,? Ms. Gerety said in 1988. ?It was considered just absolutely money down the drain.?

Still, the agency set an ambitious goal: ?to create a situation where almost every person pledging marriage feels compelled to acquire a diamond engagement ring.?

Judging from this thread alone, they succeeded beyond their wildest dreams.

I'll step back from this thread. It's obvious almost no one can actually step back and look at this whole custom in the abstract, and actually ask "how did this custom start, and how did it become part of our culture?"

Engagement rings

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