EQ Never

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Bellringer_sl

shitlord
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0
Draegan_sl said:
I have no idea what angle you're getting at. I'm not trying to piss in your cheerios by saying your preferred form of an MMORPG is bad. I mean if you like a super long leveling curve where it takes you 18 hours to get a level, more power to you. But no company that is putting in millions of dollars to create a AAA game is going to shoot for that.

However, just to play devils advocate, let's say EQN is aiming to have a leveling curve that takes 1000 hours of playtime. In order to be a successful game, you're going to have to fill that time with challenging, unique and engaging content throughout the leveling curve. That is a lot, and I mean a lot, of content to create. The only way a company can feasibly do that is if they have successfully created software that can automatically generate content that is both engaging, balanced and entertaining so that players are happily occupied with new things to do throughout their game play.

OR you just create a whole new game system that isn't really about warriors and wizards gaining levels and getting loot, but create a whole new type of game where it's more than getting the best dice roll and killing bad guys. You'd have to create some sort of environmental ecosystem that harbors player interaction where the need to level is not the carrot and power is based on skill and experience and not on levels and spells.

As for your other question, I played EQ at release and quit because it was a buggy shitty game then. I went back to play SojournMUD where Brad McQuaid copied everything from anyway. When the game eventually got better I was working full time and going to school so I never had time to play MMOs.
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I did not play EQ for 400+ days played because the game was designed to make me do it. I did it because the game was so fun that I wanted to do it. I am not alone in this. The fact that EQ was wildly successful proves that.

After EQ I eventually moved on to WOW. I leveled to 60 as soon as the game came out and hated the game. Soloing to max was remedial and an insult to me. I eventually started playing again at the end of burning crusade, but only because of friends who played.

Unlike in EQ, WOWs leveling process was a complete waste of time. It did not teach you how to maximize your characters potential and it did not teach you how to socialize successfully with others and not be a socially remedial cunt.

WOW was also wildly successful however and had its own market of players. The fact that all these wow clones have been so unsuccessful proves that either A) people want something new something original that iscompletely different than every other game out there, or B) ADHD has taken its effect and those who made WOW the most money (not the raiders correct me if im wrong) have moved on to call of duty 4000, and will continue to play every F2P MMO and spend their 50 bucks and move on to the next. Thats fine. Make these gaming companies that money to develop a game for the other types of players.

Community is key to having a lasting game. If you had played EQ you would realize that the end game players all had just about the same mental capacity. Something that cannot possibly be said about WOW. EQ end game PVE required alot of PVP (maybe GuildVGuild is more appropriate here), wether you were on a pvp server or not. Guilds fought hard to kill mobs, and would knowingly fuck other other guilds in order to do so. That was part of the meta, and it was fantastic. Sometimes it made me so fucking mad sure, but thats part of playing a game. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Losing is what makes winning having meaning. Too many games cater to those who want to win all the time no matter what, which whether they know it or not becomes way more boring than farming a key for progression.
 
D

Draegan_sl

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While finally getting something after waiting for so long is a fun thing, I just won't play a game if that waiting involves camping just one mob in a single place. I don't mind working my way up to a great reward, but I need decent content to get me there.

You prefer a passive game that doesn't require that much interaction where most of your time is spent A) Watching TV, B) Talking to someone in chat, vent, phone, whatever C) reading forums. I prefer the opposite.
 
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Bellringer_sl

shitlord
387
0
Draegan_sl said:
Soft targeting is that you don't need an actual target to have your abilities land. If I cast a fireball as a mage, it goes in a straight line and hits whatever gets in it's way. So this means I can have no target and just cast a fireball straight ahead of my character and it hits my target (no aiming like an fps), or if I'm targeting something and cast; it'll hit another target if something jumps in front of me or my target.

edit:
To your first post, the reason why you feel so good when something pops after four hours is because you're a crack addict. You punish yourself with 4 hours of boredom, of course you're going to feel euphoric when you win. It's a natural reaction.
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Soft targeting is great in single player games. The problem with soft targeting in MMOs is latency. I don't think there is any "good" way to fix that.

Second: You said it yourself, It's a natural reaction. All of life, especially gaming, plays to the reward system in ones brain. It isn't considered a reward if you did not have to struggle or punish yourself to get the reward. How can you enjoy a reward that you did not work/punish/suffer/struggle for?
 
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Bellringer_sl

shitlord
387
0
Draegan_sl said:
While finally getting something after waiting for so long is a fun thing, I just won't play a game if that waiting involves camping just one mob in a single place. I don't mind working my way up to a great reward, but I need decent content to get me there.

You prefer a passive game that doesn't require that much interaction where most of your time is spent A) Watching TV, B) Talking to someone in chat, vent, phone, whatever C) reading forums. I prefer the opposite.
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You would have probably hated EQ if you kept playing then. I can see now that you are probably the type who enjoys to game hop and play 3-6 months at a time before you get bored. I am not saying this as a negative thing. Just a different type of player. The issue at hand is that this game is part of the everquest franchise, and while I understand that EQ2 is not like EQ. You must also understand that there are a significant amount of people looking for the gratification that EQ1 gave them.
 
Randin

Randin

Trakanon Raider
1,926
881
mkopec_sl said:
So in senescence youre still making a holy trinity that way, maybe not warrior cleric chanter, but some other must have trio or wahtever.There is only so many specialized roles you can have inside a mmo.
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That is the thing that I've had difficulty trying to work out: how to have enough playstyles/roles for the idea to work. Of course, I'm not sure if my difficulty comes from there legitimately being too few specialized roles that work in an mmo, or if I'm simply so used to thinking in terms of the trinity that I'm having trouble breaking out of it.

One possibility that comes to mind, would be to design an mmo where the non-combat abilities a class brings to a group can be just as important as their combat skills, so you could create classes whose principle role is non-combative in nature, with the combat skills being secondary in nature (and, of course, classes that are the opposite); that would expand the number of playstyles/roles nicely, I think.

For instance, the rogue's ability to do damage via backstabbing could become a secondary thing, with their principle purpose being to get groups into places, primarily by being able to pick locks, by which they could get their group into otherwise inaccessible treasure rooms, or open up alternate paths that allow the group to bypass some fights and get further into the dungeon. Again, this is contingent on creating a game where picking locks is actually as useful as a combat ability, but I think it is possible.

And yes, it's practically inevitable that ideal group layouts would be figured out, and people would use them, but is that really any different from players figuring out that warriors make the best tanks, and only using them for that role?
 
Z

Zantox_sl

shitlord
38
0
One thing that is important about the level cap is the ability for people to play the same content with their friends, regardless of how much of a progression difference there is. If you are more casual than your friend, and he is 700 hours ahead of you in a 900 hour level cap game, you don't get to PVP with him, you typically don't get any EXP with him in group and certainly no "progressing" together (or really, individually). This is a real issue that is solved by everyone being the same level (aka, level-capped), instead of being artificially separated. In almost every MMO I play, I lose friends along the way (or I am the lost friend) because people play at different rates and it sucks to wait and it sucks to be behind.

Draegan at one point brought up a no-level (or all capped level) game with alternate progression. That is an interesting idea that I think can work with the right mechanics and game play.
 
mkopec

mkopec

<Gold Donor>
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Poker analogy. Poker would not be fun to play if you won every single time. This is why winning is so euphoric.
 
D

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
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Bellringer_sl said:
I did not play EQ for 400+ days played because the game was designed to make me do it. I did it because the game was so fun that I wanted to do it. I am not alone in this. The fact that EQ was wildly successful proves that.

After EQ I eventually moved on to WOW. I leveled to 60 as soon as the game came out and hated the game. Soloing to max was remedial and an insult to me. I eventually started playing again at the end of burning crusade, but only because of friends who played.

Unlike in EQ, WOWs leveling process was a complete waste of time. It did not teach you how to maximize your characters potential and it did not teach you how to socialize successfully with others and not be a socially remedial cunt.

WOW was also wildly successful however and had its own market of players. The fact that all these wow clones have been so unsuccessful proves that either A) people want something new something original that iscompletely different than every other game out there, or B) ADHD has taken its effect and those who made WOW the most money (not the raiders correct me if im wrong) have moved on to call of duty 4000, and will continue to play every F2P MMO and spend their 50 bucks and move on to the next. Thats fine. Make these gaming companies that money to develop a game for the other types of players.

Community is key to having a lasting game. If you had played EQ you would realize that the end game players all had just about the same mental capacity. Something that cannot possibly be said about WOW. EQ end game PVE required alot of PVP (maybe GuildVGuild is more appropriate here), wether you were on a pvp server or not. Guilds fought hard to kill mobs, and would knowingly fuck other other guilds in order to do so. That was part of the meta, and it was fantastic. Sometimes it made me so fucking mad sure, but thats part of playing a game. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. Losing is what makes winning having meaning. Too many games cater to those who want to win all the time no matter what, which whether they know it or not becomes way more boring than farming a key for progression.
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I really don't know how to respond to this without rehashing old shit over and over. We just had the community based discussion pages ago. If you're looking for a lasting community, you can find it in WOW (or at least you used to a few years ago, I have no idea how the heroic-raiding community is these days). Not to mention there are tons of communities that are part of WOW, but not the ones you like. I'm sure there are circles of pet battles or arena players.

The thing is that the population is so large, so spread out that it's hard to look at the game and immediately see the dominate faction/interest in the game because it caters to so many different types of players, across a wide range of ages, in a world where the internet is 10000x bigger than it was back in 2001.

A lot of post-WOW games are failures because they were shitty games regardless of their playstyle. Some more recent ones like Rift and GW2 have been very successful.

Now that's not to say that there isn't a giant niche to fill with a competitive guild/pvp type of game. I was hoping GW2 would of done that in WvW but that flopped. I agree and the genre needs different types of games. There is room for a group-centric game. There is room for guild v guild stuff. There is room for competitive-gaming that isn't tacked on to a level/quest treadmill game (the latest incarnation which is Wildstar).

The main issue is that you have to create an engaging game with great content to go along with it. So if you're going to create a game that has a long leveling curve, higher difficult rating that promotes group play and other "hardcore" features, you are going to have to create a game that not only has content to promote it (i.e. you can't just make a dungeon with static spawns and tell players go camp shit) but also has the quality of life features that players expect (UI customization and addons, social tools for finding groups and organizing friends)
 
D

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
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Bellringer_sl said:
You would have probably hated EQ if you kept playing then. I can see now that you are probably the type who enjoys to game hop and play 3-6 months at a time before you get bored. I am not saying this as a negative thing. Just a different type of player. The issue at hand is that this game is part of the everquest franchise, and while I understand that EQ2 is not like EQ. You must also understand that there are a significant amount of people looking for the gratification that EQ1 gave them.
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No, I played those games in the 90s. I played a ton of MUDs where you either camped a single spot for days, or gear only loaded once per server reset (which could be days or weeks). I just grew out of it.

Another thing which is funny, that also reflects on your mindset, is you say that a player who plays a game for 3-6 month is just "hop"ing in to it or that a player is bored after a half year of play tells you something.

If you can get someone to play your game for 3-6 months straight, as an MMORPG, you are doing something good. That's not "hopping" in to anything. That's a commitment.
 
Q

qwertyqweqwertwqert

<Banned>
1,678
149
The issue of modern gamers being conditioned to blast through the levels is an interesting one to me. It's a big problem, and it's hard to overcome. People want levels fast, the fact that you are supposed to be having fun by exploring, fighting in different fun places, etc.. they don't care. If they can't level fast, the game is broken. I remember playing some game (Vanguard maybe) and seeing people in chat complain about the level speed. Someone once said, "But it's too slow!" and I remember I asked them why they wanted to reach the max level. And it was one of those, "Um... cuz... ur gay fuk u" moments.

One thought I had is that maybe you could force the player to make their time, or genuinely suck later on. For example, you can easily have mobs with maximum level requirements, so they are only for low level players. Give them no drop items. And then make those items some of the most important items in the game (think of resist gear and utility items like instant invis clicky, jboots, etc). And bingo, if you go blasting through the levels like a spaz, you'll miss out on all the stuff and suffer later on.

But maybe people would rebel against that. Or maybe it would harm the freedom of people who do already play intelligently, because they can no longer just explore and have fun and instead have to specifically find a route through the game that takes them through all these key 'checkpoints'.

Maybe the solution to people rushing through the content, is to just say fuck them. Let them complain that it's slow. Just don't cave to the whining. Stick to your guns. The none pussies will continue working their way through the game at the proper pace. And the whiner types, half of them will quit (good riddance), and the other half maybe they will learn the error of their ways and learn to appreciate a different style of game.
 
D

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
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Randin_sl said:
For instance, the rogue's ability to do damage via backstabbing could become a secondary thing, with their principle purpose being to get groups into places, primarily by being able to pick locks, by which they could get their group into otherwise inaccessible treasure rooms, or open up alternate paths that allow the group to bypass some fights and get further into the dungeon. Again, this is contingent on creating a game where picking locks is actually as useful as a combat ability, but I think it is possible.
?
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See here's the issue, you're idealizing an D&D campaign or novel where that person is brought along to do a certain job and they are happy to do it because they are getting something out of it.

In the reality of an MMORPG, you're just the pick lock bitch who does shitty DPS. You do you one job 2-3 times in a dungeon, which takes all of three seconds to click on a lock, and then you have to sit back and watch people have fun killing shit for mad lewtz. That's not fun.
 
D

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
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mkopec_sl said:
Poker analogy. Poker would not be fun to play if you won every single time. This is why winning is so euphoric.
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Ah but the act of playing poker is fun in of itself, even if you are not winning you're still engaged and playing every hand. The proper analogy would be that you had to wait 20 minutes after a hand before the dealer reshuffles.
 
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Bellringer_sl

shitlord
387
0
Draegan_sl said:
Ah but the act of playing poker is fun in of itself, even if you are not winning you're still engaged and playing every hand. The proper analogy would be that you had to wait 20 minutes after a hand before the dealer reshuffles.
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Um. In poker you do not play every hand you are dealt, and you don't win every hand you play. I think it was a terrific analogy.
 
B

Bellringer_sl

shitlord
387
0
Draegan_sl said:
No, I played those games in the 90s. I played a ton of MUDs where you either camped a single spot for days, or gear only loaded once per server reset (which could be days or weeks). I just grew out of it.

Another thing which is funny, that also reflects on your mindset, is you say that a player who plays a game for 3-6 month is just "hop"ing in to it or that a player is bored after a half year of play tells you something.

If you can get someone to play your game for 3-6 months straight, as an MMORPG, you are doing something good. That's not "hopping" in to anything. That's a commitment.
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You are absolutely right. I do not consider playing an MMO for 6 months to be a committed player. That is probably because of my EQ mentality, and that's fine. I want a MMO that keeps me engaged for years, not months. I think there are alot of players looking for the same. Playing a MMO for 6 months does not allow you to become emotionally attached to your character, the land/game, or the community.
 
ZyyzYzzy

ZyyzYzzy

RIP USA
<Banned>
25,295
48,789
Draegan_sl said:
See here's the issue, you're idealizing an D&D campaign or novel where that person is brought along to do a certain job and they are happy to do it because they are getting something out of it.

In the reality of an MMORPG, you're just the pick lock bitch who does shitty DPS. You do you one job 2-3 times in a dungeon, which takes all of three seconds to click on a lock, and then you have to sit back and watch people have fun killing shit for mad lewtz. That's not fun.
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You could tie all the rogues abilities together though, get better at lock pick, it augments others. And for lock picking you can make it some what entertaining. When you pick a lock it generates some mini game where you have to actually do something (idk what would be appropriate and fun) All the while traps and mobs are spawning. The group has to deal with them and deactivate the traps so the rogue can finish lock picking uninterrupted.

Hell you can even have an alternate advancement tied into grouping with a rogue that actually utilizes all of his skills.
 
D

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
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Bellringer_sl said:
Why not? You practically said it yourself. Just because YOU don't like it, doesn't mean there is not a market for it.
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Well yeah, no matter what you make there is going to be someone who likes it. That doesn't mean a company like SOE who is trying to resurrect their reputation should go dump 10s of millions of dollars into a project and the only thing they have to show for it is a dungeon that just stands still for you to camp.

Any game that shows that sort of thing should be embarrassed, including Wildstar. We should be past this static spawning, stand still NPC game design by now.
 
Q

qwertyqweqwertwqert

<Banned>
1,678
149
Draegan_sl said:
In the reality of an MMORPG, you're just the pick lock bitch who does shitty DPS. You do you one job 2-3 times in a dungeon, which takes all of three seconds to click on a lock, and then you have to sit back and watch people have fun killing shit for mad lewtz. That's not fun.
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True but it doesn't have to be like that. For example, picking locks could take a while and be a proper mini game and the group might have to defend him. So he becomes the uber safe cracker of the group rather than a lock pick biotch. And also, maybe if they reduced the number of classes in these games, each individual would end up with more to do.
 
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Bellringer_sl

shitlord
387
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Draegan_sl said:
You get the opportunity to play every hand, you just happen to fold. You're still engaged playing poker each time.
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Whaaaaaat? Dude when you get 10-12 awful hand in a row, you are not engaged in playing poker. Lol. This is why online professionals play 10-15+ tables at a time. Now THEY are playing poker.
 
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