EQ Never

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,380
276
That and the fact that levels are increasingly becoming a pretty stupid barrier for the majority of hardcore players. I have like 6 level 90's in World of Warcraft, and leveling up a new one is just an annoyance at this point. I'd wager most people consider max level the 'real game' in most MMOs...so why not just let everyone start there? Why not make the entire game that 'end-game experience' instead of wasting resources on leveling content that people will just blow right by without stopping to appreciate any of the work that was put into it?

It makes so much sense I really can't believe it hasn't been done sooner in a traditional AAA MMO. Too many companies too scared to take a chance, I suppose. I think it's a great idea, I just hope they implement it right.
It's already been done by GW2 - you have levels there but they are a breeze to play through for the first run, and since you get enough xp from crafting to 1-80 (i.e. level cap) you can max your alts that way in an hour or two if you dont feel like replaying.

I do hope however these power tiers play out it means I can go do any content I want and its at least somewhat relevant to my character, its my most liked feature in GW2.
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
25,946
113,035
In order to change the holy trinity you have to change the way encounters are built. GW2 did not and that's why it was retarded.
Completely true. But I've never seen AI advanced enough to allow for fluid, dynamic, roles like those "wanted" in GW2. And typically, front line/rear support is a pretty standard tactical system in most fights in the real world--I mean, there is a reason why the trinity abstraction was developed in the first place. If someone is saying the trinity is dead, then I have to ask, how? By nuking dedicated healers? Because then they aren'treallygiving control to players are they?

Makes me very nervous when I read that statement. Unless the AI is really that good to allow for it (Which, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, for sure...But again, just that phrase makes me nervous because it feels like in a proper sandbox the trinity should almost arise naturally--because the elements that make it work won't need to be abstracted, so just naturally heavies will move up, while support moves back--like most battles in human history.)
 

Teekey

Mr. Poopybutthole
3,644
-6,335
Yes some builds will offer more protection/pets while others will be more glass cannons. But the point is that you do not have full time healers. Instead of healing you will have to make sure that the mob killing your party member gets taken down. The entire design is about not playing the UI but playing the game.
Yep. Check this quote:

Can someone advance just doing support? Or do you have to DPS?

Michael: You'll need to be involved or your party members will wonder what you're doing. We don't want you staring at bars and clicking cheal. We want you involved.
 

Abefroman

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
12,588
11,904
The whole joy of being an Argo management, crowd control, or healing class is being directly responsible for the success of a group and to be able to manage the shortcomings of others.

Please, let us help inexperienced players succeed with our own skills.
frown.png
That is perfectly said. The Gw2 combat system actually works really well and is fun. The problem with it is you need a full group of good players that actually understand the system. We know how fucking impossible that is to find.
 

Malakriss

Golden Baronet of the Realm
12,364
11,761
Completely true. But I've never seen AI advanced enough to allow for fluid, dynamic, roles like those "wanted" in GW2. And typically, front line/rear support is a pretty standard tactical system in most fights in the real world--I mean, there is a reason why the trinity abstraction was developed in the first place. If someone is saying the trinity is dead, then I have to ask, how? By what, nuking dedicated healers? Because then they aren't really giving control to players are they?

Makes me very nervous when I read that statement. Unless the AI is really that good to allow for it (Which, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, for sure...But again, just that phrase makes me nervous because it feels like in a proper sandbox the trinity should almost arise natural--because the elements that make it won't need to be abstracted.)
There would have to be some physics mechanics like the original EQ where you can't ghost through other players or NPCs, so if you have a fat ass ogre/troll wall the raid boss won't just run over to a wizard and gain another cloth cap.
 

Mughal

Bronze Knight of the Realm
279
39
Completely true. But I've never seen AI advanced enough to allow for fluid, dynamic, roles like those "wanted" in GW2. And typically, front line/rear support is a pretty standard tactical system in most fights in the real world--I mean, there is a reason why the trinity abstraction was developed in the first place. If someone is saying the trinity is dead, then I have to ask, how? By what, nuking dedicated healers? Because then they aren't really giving control to players are they?

Makes me very nervous when I read that statement. Unless the AI is really that good to allow for it (Which, I'll give them the benefit of the doubt, for sure...But again, just that phrase makes me nervous because it feels like in a proper sandbox the trinity should almost arise natural--because the elements that make it won't need to be abstracted.)
Trinity and Good Combat AI(TM) are equally exclusive. Otherwise explain why mobs spend their fucking time hitting one dude when instead everyone they should go always for the healers.

You can still have tanks. But the second you have full time healers, all the mobs should always pound on those unless their IQ is sub human.
 

Mr Creed

Too old for this shit
2,380
276
no, i get it, it's just that it sounds terrible. one of the best things about the original EQ was going back and face raping content that used to kick your ass.
Well that's your opinion. In my opnion that sucked and I found it very boring and would've prefered to experience the content at a power level that made it interesting. Let's agree to disagree here and I hope EQN swings my way in this regard.
 

Gravel

Mr. Poopybutthole
36,539
116,346
NPC's will figure out your tactics and react. You're gonna want some friends to play with you
This sounds like a whole bunch of bullshit. Ok, so they suddenly figured out adaptive AI? Or is it just going to be some scripted non-sense?

The more I hear about this, the more it seems like they really have no idea what they're doing yet. They literally have a half working engine and that's it. Nothing in this game sounds like it's been balanced out.
 

Grim1

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
4,865
6,822
Sounds like Guildwars 2 pve, if so I'm out.
The main problem with GW2's pve is that it is just too easy. The mobs are tuned for mindless button mashing, skill is not required to accomplish anything in their PvE game. Even the dungeons are pretty much faceroll. They can get more challenging if you rise up the tiers but being forced to run endless dungeon runs over and over just to get a challenge is a pathetic design.

GW2 had an early beta where the mobs were tuned to be tougher than they were in release. It required you to think about what skills you were using to win. I loved it, but the masses whined and the devs caved.

Getting rid of the trinity was a good concept but the trinity is only necessary during hard content. Since the PvE in GW2 is so easy, the players were never forced to come up with anything to replace the trinity.
 

tad10

Elisha Dushku
5,518
583
Nobody asked the obvious - does class determine load-out question. I'll try and track down a dev.

Also stop saying GW2. It's MTG and LOL - they made a straight up comparison.
 

Lleauaric

Sparkletot Monger
4,058
1,823
I'm not sure why you guys are so in love with holy trinity, taunt and tank. If mob AI is going to evolve then building an AI around that mechanic has to go.

What you want is a good balance between being able to predict and control what a mob is going to do and the challenge of making the act of doing that significant.
 

Agraza

Registered Hutt
6,890
521
Yes some builds will offer more protection/pets while others will be more glass cannons. But the point is that you do not have full time healers. Instead of healing you will have to make sure that the mob killing your party member gets taken down. The entire design is about not playing the UI but playing the game.
That sounds wonderful the way you put it, but I am skeptical of the execution. Aggro is a boring concept, and so is taking massive hits to the face and being healed to 100% 1.5 seconds later. I've opined on preventative support rather than restorative more than once, but unfortunately we've yet to be graced with a fun alternative to that system despite its flaws.

How involved are you with this project anyway?
 

Lost Ranger_sl

shitlord
1,027
4
Nothing in this game sounds like it's been balanced out.
Why would it be? This game is a long ways out from even being in beta. This is a first look at a game most of us won't even get our hands on this year. Probably most of next year too. If we were a couple months from launch I'd be concerned too, but we aren't.

That being said this will be SOE's greatest test. They have some MASSIVE potential on their hands, but they could easily fuck this up just like they did EQ2. From what I have seen this game needs another year or so before they should be thinking about releasing.