EQ TLP - Vaniki (Level-Locked Progression)

alavaz · May 10, 2022

If they enabled "relaxed boxing" i.e. 2-3 per PC I think people would come. The problem is that they would actually have to have some semblance of enforcement because the second some boxer with more than 1 group gets seen it'll be all over.

LJ and RF still stand out in peoples minds. Regardless of how much it actually affects me in the long run, I'd definitely prefer not to see some subhuman owning 3 picks of my precious lower guk with their box army.

Ambiturner · May 10, 2022

alavaz said:
If they enabled "relaxed boxing" i.e. 2-3 per PC I think people would come. The problem is that they would actually have to have some semblance of enforcement because the second some boxer with more than 1 group gets seen it'll be all over.

LJ and RF still stand out in peoples minds. Regardless of how much it actually affects me in the long run, I'd definitely prefer not to see some subhuman owning 3 picks of my precious lower guk with their box army.

How is that any different than now where people still box armies and nothing is done about it?

yerm · May 10, 2022

The difference is that as long as most people don't, they have a pool of non boxers to play with. If someone needs dps they are grabbing from lfg instead of logging in another account. The big problem with boxing to these masses is the creation of self sustained and antisocial groups. To anti boxers, kronolords gonna kronolord regardless, but the lfg game is healthier if casual johnny only plays 1 maybe 2 and no more and has to pug. That's really the gist of it. Groups and raids populated by individuals. Casuals and shitters and autists able to find group love.

Personally I think it's a trash approach and even nonboxers typically form friend circles or cliques and the shit tier players are left out by god/oow regardless, but, they aren't going to view themselves that way and they're the ones apparently paying the big bucks. So they get truebox servers.

Kirun · May 10, 2022

yerm said:
The difference is that as long as most people don't, they have a pool of non boxers to play with. If someone needs dps they are grabbing from lfg instead of logging in another account. The big problem with boxing to these masses is the creation of self sustained and antisocial groups. To anti boxers, kronolords gonna kronolord regardless, but the lfg game is healthier if casual johnny only plays 1 maybe 2 and no more and has to pug. That's really the gist of it. Groups and raids populated by individuals. Casuals and shitters and autists able to find group love.

Personally I think it's a trash approach and even nonboxers typically form friend circles or cliques and the shit tier players are left out by god/oow regardless, but, they aren't going to view themselves that way and they're the ones apparently paying the big bucks. So they get truebox servers.

I used to 3 box and would add others to my group all the time, if they pulled their weight. As soon as they were shown to constantly be afk, fucking around, not paying attention, etc. I'd just kick them.

The crux of it is really that Johnny Casual doesn't like the idea that people aren't forced to use him as dead weight in 2022, unlike 1999. Who knew that people wouldn't want to group with shitters and would rather just group with themselves if that's the alternative.

Boxing or no boxing the "group" game is only ever really "healthy" on a brand new server, with a few short upticks when BLs and Zerks are released. Other than that, the sub-cap grouping game only gets worse as time goes on and the "cap" grouping game is all made up of guildies. Boxing is actually one of the few things that helps with the former.

Arbitrary · May 10, 2022

There are many facets to the issue. The motivated types tend to do the previous expansion's content to pick up something they missed, gear out an alt, make some krono, what have you. The less people you bring with you bigger the piece of pie for each participant. People that don't run multiple characters are kind of a waste of space so unless you really like someone you aren't going to invite them. It can get cliquey and toxic pretty fast as your guild has multiple smaller guilds within it all with their own members and goals.

yerm · May 10, 2022

Kirun said:
I used to 3 box and would add others to my group all the time, if they pulled their weight. As soon as they were shown to constantly be afk, fucking around, not paying attention, etc. I'd just kick them.

The crux of it is really that Johnny Casual doesn't like the idea that people aren't forced to use him as dead weight in 2022, unlike 1999. Who knew that people wouldn't want to group with shitters and would rather just group with themselves if that's the alternative.

Boxing or no boxing the "group" game is only every really "healthy" on a brand new server, with a few short upticks when BLs and Zerks are released. Other than that, the sub-cap grouping game only gets worse as time goes on and the "cap" grouping game is all made up of guildies. Boxing is actually one of the few things that helps with the former.

I agree, but sammy the shitter doesn't. He thinks boxing took his jerb. He won't admit that his shit play or constant smoke breaks or being annoying as fuck did it. Meanwhile, as you said, his group game exists on new servers, so, we will perpetually see new servers over and over with refreshed pug environments.

Arbitrary said:
There are many facets to the issue. The motivated types tend to do the previous expansion's content to pick up something they missed, gear out an alt, make some krono, what have you. The less people you bring with you bigger the piece of pie for each participant. People that don't run multiple characters are kind of a waste of space so unless you really like someone you aren't going to invite them. It can get cliquey and toxic pretty fast as your guild has multiple smaller guilds within it all with their own members and goals.

I've seen this happen and work where solo/duo and >6 boxers work together, but always with a very clear loot setup that wasn't even time per human, or mains need alts greed. The solo players are getting very little, maybe one missed item, and largely always helping the boxer. Seemed to work when I saw. It's always cliquey though and I think every mmo or even mmo-like game becomes cliquey after a while. Whether it's toxic or not I guess depends on the guild.

alavaz · May 10, 2022

Ambiturner said:
How is that any different than now where people still box armies and nothing is done about it?

Are you saying that any "truebox" server has had the amount of box armies as LJ/RF? Cause I can without a doubt say that you are wrong.

Kharzette · May 10, 2022

Hmm why not box rules based on current population, scaled by available land.

Include a lore heavy broadcast when the rules change. Put one of the random ass obscure gods in charge of it. Have a crontab like routine check every 5 minutes or so.

Friday night with 6k people on in classic and people stuck in queue? No boxing allowed.

Monday morning with 1000 and 3 expansions open? No problem box away!

Cinge · May 10, 2022

Kharzette said:
Hmm why not box rules based on current population, scaled by available land.

Include a lore heavy broadcast when the rules change. Put one of the random ass obscure gods in charge of it. Have a crontab like routine check every 5 minutes or so.

Friday night with 6k people on in classic and people stuck in queue? No boxing allowed.

Monday morning with 1000 and 3 expansions open? No problem box away!

I'd say that is way too much for DPG to handle. But who knows really with the jchan person in charge.

People will bitch either way, even with the above. I want to box on friday night when the server is full, i dont want to deal with other players!

Honestly imo, should just always allow 1 box. Can open it up more later. And if needed just do as you say and turn it off the server has or is within a certain # of a queue starting. If the boxing code can even be adjusted on the fly.

Ambiturner · May 10, 2022

alavaz said:
Are you saying that any "truebox" server has had the amount of box armies as LJ/RF? Cause I can without a doubt say that you are wrong.

How the fuck did you get that from what i wrote?

You said the second someone saw someone with a full group it would all be over. It would be no different than it is now where there's plenty of people breaking the truebox rule and nothing happens

Arbitrary · May 10, 2022

It's a shame that Ragefire and Lockjaw had such a lasting and polarizing influence.

xmod2 · May 10, 2022

Kharzette said:
Hmm why not box rules based on current population, scaled by available land.

Include a lore heavy broadcast when the rules change. Put one of the random ass obscure gods in charge of it. Have a crontab like routine check every 5 minutes or so.

Friday night with 6k people on in classic and people stuck in queue? No boxing allowed.

Monday morning with 1000 and 3 expansions open? No problem box away!

How would you enforce that? Enable the truebox detection and knock everyone offline who is currently boxing? If you're chilling in an empty zone boxing and the broadcast comes out, does that mean you need to pack it in and stop what you're doing? Truebox is only a minor annoyance anyway, since EQ runs on anything and it's easy to get a few extra old PCs or laptops to run boxes remotely.

Truebox stuff was never really a huge issue. People boxing would normally keep their box out of group or you'd try to cycle them in if the group was reliable. I think yerm's argument is less that boxing is harmful and more the appearance of a 'boxing' server scares off easy money. In that case, they should do what they've been doing. Claim it's truebox and then not really do anything about it. Even with Aradune's alleged GM, people weren't really getting pinched for showeq or boxing. God help you if you ran past a farmer and one of your mobs aggroed onto their group though.

Ikkan · May 11, 2022

Kharzette said:
Hmm why not box rules based on current population, scaled by available land.

Include a lore heavy broadcast when the rules change. Put one of the random ass obscure gods in charge of it. Have a crontab like routine check every 5 minutes or so.

Friday night with 6k people on in classic and people stuck in queue? No boxing allowed.

Monday morning with 1000 and 3 expansions open? No problem box away!

I boxed 24 on Rizlona, and I certainly didn't level/AA/gear/key/flag all of those toons in order to only use them certain times of the week. That sounds like a nightmare from a boxing perspective.

yerm · May 11, 2022

The problem with that idea is that boxing actually isn't their problem. They think it is, but it isn't. Once people settle into a server and reach more difficult content, the prospect of grouping with shit players - the kind who whine that good enchanters shouldn't have to charm or who don't raid or who are doing 9 other things - becomes a no go. People just log off over pugging. The solution to the boxing problem is either seasonal servers, wow style lfg matchmaking with rewards for carrying plebs... or telling people to stop being shit.

Mahes · May 11, 2022

Just strengthen the Merc system and let players have Mercenaries from the very start. That is a server I would try. It would have a major effect on open world raids but honestly the idea is to have fun. Who gives a shit if half of the raid were Mercenaries. That would counter the idea they are currently trying with this idea of killing a boss that is over leveled, but I am not overly excited about a zerg raid force for every raid.

Another idea for a server. No leveling required. Have new expansions out once a month with a couple joined together. You need a cleric, bring one. Want to try a Ranger, go ahead. The server would still require gearing the character but you would not have to go through the now boring process of actually leveling it. It would also provide some time to take a break if you want for a week or two and then just come back with the new expansion.

The only other idea that would take a lot of programming would be to actually realize the Monster system. The problem is that it would require an entire rewrite of the game and system to accommodate it.

alavaz · May 11, 2022

Ambiturner said:
How the fuck did you get that from what i wrote?

You said the second someone saw someone with a full group it would all be over. It would be no different than it is now where there's plenty of people breaking the truebox rule and nothing happens

You actually used the term "box armies" and I actually used the term "more than a full group."

It's pretty simple and I think most people have the attitude that I do. It's not that I care if people box more than 6, I don't hate them and I don't think it's cheating. It just doesn't appeal to me to have them around me. So given the choice I will play where they are not. Sorry if that offends fellas, it just is what it is.

Vlett · May 11, 2022

I haven't felt a need to box since Vulak.

Ambiturner · May 11, 2022

alavaz said:
You actually used the term "box armies" and I actually used the term "more than a full group."

So? Why do you keep bringing up irrelevant shit?

The idea that the entire house of cards will fall if they change the number of boxes allowed and people exceed it is completely retarded because it happens all the time now and nothing comes of it.

Kirun · May 11, 2022

Mahes said:
Just strengthen the Merc system and let players have Mercenaries from the very start. That is a server I would try. It would have a major effect on open world raids but honestly the idea is to have fun. Who gives a shit if half of the raid were Mercenaries. That would counter the idea they are currently trying with this idea of killing a boss that is over leveled, but I am not overly excited about a zerg raid force for every raid.

Another idea for a server. No leveling required. Have new expansions out once a month with a couple joined together. You need a cleric, bring one. Want to try a Ranger, go ahead. The server would still require gearing the character but you would not have to go through the now boring process of actually leveling it. It would also provide some time to take a break if you want for a week or two and then just come back with the new expansion.

The only other idea that would take a lot of programming would be to actually realize the Monster system. The problem is that it would require an entire rewrite of the game and system to accommodate it.

Mercs from server launch is something they needed to try a long time ago. I recently have been fucking around in EQ2 and having mercs available at level 1 is a massive difference in my ability to enjoy the game. I doubt I would've lasted more than a couple days without them. Plus, it allows you to group with a buddy or two and essentially have a full group.

alavaz · May 11, 2022

Ambiturner said:
So? Why do you keep bringing up irrelevant shit?

The idea that the entire house of cards will fall if they change the number of boxes allowed and people exceed it is completely retarded because it happens all the time now and nothing comes of it.

Jesus my man you are black hole dense. You asked me. You are also definitely winning the irrelevant shit contest.

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