Everquest - Agnarr Server: Sunset Mode

4,107
4,043
Huh? Wasn't first in force enforced by GMs? It wasn't respect it was not wanting a suspension.

Not necessarily. I think what Vaclav was referring to was, if a lower tier guild had massed, and if they could engage, you gave them their shot. If they wiped, you moved your people in. I just remember that being, not like an absolute norm, but kinda common practice / courtesy. You would, in other words, not "race" any and every guild who was massing. If a guild who had not yet or had not in a while gotten a mob, if they were massing, you let them take the shot.

Keep in mind, internet connections were so dicey back then, half of the reason for this was, ultra-racing to get first in force (or fte) was kind of not realistic. You could crash zones that way.

I remember the ideal norm being, you let a guild who was clearly massing take a shot, especially if they were lower tier than you. They would wipe 3 out of 4 times, and so you usually still ended up getting the mob. But I was on Quellious, not the most cut-throat server.
 

Vaclav

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
12,650
877
Huh? Wasn't first in force enforced by GMs? It wasn't respect it was not wanting a suspension.

Depends entirely on the server - for the great majority (I played on far too many pre-TLP [probably raided on 6-7 pre-TLP if I cared to try to remember it all] - all the ones I played on pre-TLP were this way) it was respected out of practicality as he mentioned and generally just not being a shitbird. Not to mention since content was actually a challenge back then if you went and tried to snipe something, usually it wasn't something that was a 100% chance of a win snoozefest so if you tried to snipe something you'd often make an ass out of yourself.

Remember back then reputation was something that couldn't be shed with a name change/etc.

Now that said, SOME servers absolutely did have shitbirding going on earlier - although I never played on any, as a Sr. Guide back then I did get called to watch on zones and otherwise be a proactive measure on a few servers where shitbird behavior was common.

Now, of course the foundations of this forum being Veeshan based - and that being one of the servers where shitbirding happened - the perspective here will obviously be skewed a little harder towards it being commonplace. (Celestial Rapture was the big problem over there IIRC)

But accountability and practicality behind treating people decent dropped off a cliff as time pushed forward.
 

Deruvian

Lord Nagafen Raider
642
116
On Rathe, in 99, if you were clearing FG's, Ice Giants, Fear Trash or Hate Trash, you basically had claim to the god if it was up and you had enough to engage. BOTS and KEG had started to camp out on the wall of the FG castle on the other side of the lava on server shutdowns, but that was about as bad as it got. God, I remember sitting in that rudimentary chat channel just waiting on the server up message so that we could storm in and see what was up. There was a general feeling that you were due your shot at the mob as long as you had the numbers and were in the zone in force.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: 1 user

Zaide

TLP Idealist
3,741
4,398
What I find baffling and kind of depressing is that if you mention stuff like this to "younger" hardcore players (i.e., people who did not hardcore raid during original because they were, um, still in underoos) they act as if you are speaking gibberish. The notion of not turning a persistent online world into an endless hellhole is simply alien to them. We had it good, imho. There was plenty of chaos, but there were also some norms at work. "This isn't Nam, Smokey, there are rules," as they say.

I think it's more likely that rule enforcement and game knowledge have been the deciding factor rather than human nature suddenly changing over the last 18 years.

Also there is just the slow escalation in the arms race. If one guild starts being more aggressive and the GM's don't slap them down a notch then it forces all other guilds to follow suit or lose.
 
  • 2Like
  • 1Solidarity
Reactions: 2 users
4,107
4,043
I think it's more likely that rule enforcement and game knowledge have been the deciding factor rather than human nature suddenly changing over the last 18 years.

Also there is just the slow escalation in the arms race. If one guild starts being more aggressive and the GM's don't slap them down a notch then it forces all other guilds to follow suit or lose.

game knowledge increasd at the same rate, maybe, as technological limits? I think technological limits were very real. And game knowledge. We take for granted everyone knows what "joust" means, to use a silly example. I would not underestimate the number of ***solid*** early players who -- whether because of vodka or the time of night -- could not grasp the concept of "STOP ATTACKING." We were a big bunch of idtios, often enough.

Rule enforcement was a reaction, not an action.

And that is where I have to call into question the underlying premise of your last sentence: "Also there is just the slow escalation in the arms race. If one guild starts being more aggressive and the GM's don't slap them down a notch then it forces all other guilds to follow suit or lose."

This is where me, and maybe Vaclav, will disagree. This was a choice on our part. Gamers could have gone in a diff direction. Guilds and players who crossed certain lines used to be ostracized in a way. Maybe those days are gone. But that is what happened. It was not devs or gm's who invented, by enforcing rules, what it means to be a "douchebag." In the early days, the players themselves were defining that. If anything, the failure of mmorpg's has been to not follow the wisdom of the players, but instead pander to their................. dark sides.
 

Zaide

TLP Idealist
3,741
4,398
And that is where I have to call into question the underlying premise of your last sentence: "Also there is just the slow escalation in the arms race. If one guild starts being more aggressive and the GM's don't slap them down a notch then it forces all other guilds to follow suit or lose."

This is where me, and maybe Vaclav, will disagree. This was a choice on our part. Gamers could have gone in a diff direction. Guilds and players who crossed certain lines used to be ostracized in a way. Maybe those days are gone. But that is what happened. It was not devs or gm's who invented, by enforcing rules, what it means to be a "douchebag." In the early days, the players themselves were defining that. If anything, the failure of mmorpg's has been to not follow the wisdom of the players, but instead pander to their................. dark sides.

I think you have some nostalgia glasses on when you talk about how much reputation mattered. Results have always mattered more than reputation, in EQ and life. Even on TLP we've seen the slow escalation. First it was mobilization racing for "first in force", then it was first to engage and then when GM's stopped suspending players for "kill stealing" we saw the gold standard become dps racing.

Ostracizing people implies you have something to ostracize them from. Even if the entire server turns their backs on the top guild it changes nothing. 1000 players vs 60 doesn't make a difference when the 60 dominate every raid encounter. It becomes the reverse, the non top guild players have been ostracized from the raid content. Results and not being intolerable to group/guild with are all that matters and it was always this way.

The top guild is the guild that's willing to do the most to win, whatever "the most" implies they will push the bounds of the rules as far as they must. If they did not do this then they would not be the top guild.

If you are a raiding guild and the top guild is determined to lock down "all" raid content then your choice is to either play on their terms or cease to exist.
 
  • 2Like
Reactions: 1 users

Kaines

Potato Supreme
16,911
46,109
On Rathe, in 99, if you were clearing FG's, Ice Giants, Fear Trash or Hate Trash, you basically had claim to the god if it was up and you had enough to engage. BOTS and KEG had started to camp out on the wall of the FG castle on the other side of the lava on server shutdowns, but that was about as bad as it got. God, I remember sitting in that rudimentary chat channel just waiting on the server up message so that we could storm in and see what was up. There was a general feeling that you were due your shot at the mob as long as you had the numbers and were in the zone in force.

This is how it was on Torvo as well. There were disputes from time to time, but nothing major. It's why I prefer emu servers these days. The emu's actually have a better community than most live servers even if they are tiny in population in comparison.
 

Vaclav

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
12,650
877
The top guild is the guild that's willing to do the most to win, whatever "the most" implies they will push the bounds of the rules as far as they must. If they did not do this then they would not be the top guild.

If you are a raiding guild and the top guild is determined to lock down "all" raid content then your choice is to either play on their terms or cease to exist.

Mostly true, but remember with how weak enforcement has always been - it was those leading guilds that effectively set the rules. (Either directly, or in response to other guilds shitbirding first - i.e. how I place most of the CR/FoH situation blame on CR)

The game never created the situation itself - the leading guilds did. Servers with chill major guilds ended up following suit, servers without were pits of anxiety with everyone going after each other.
 

Flobee

Vyemm Raider
2,609
3,002
I'm fucking ready for them to drop a release date on this. Really want to know if my poopsock will be available or if I'll already have it packed up.
 
  • 3Like
Reactions: 2 users
4,107
4,043
I
If you are a raiding guild and the top guild is determined to lock down "all" raid content then your choice is to either play on their terms or cease to exist.

I think we are in the "exception vs the norm" territory here Zaide. The norm was not to go full retard. But, if that failed, then full retard came into play.

I was in the guild zerg of RZTWL that caused SOE to put flag limits and raid # limits into game. We crashed the zone (ie, almost everyone wnt LD or dropped to 1 fps), but we got the kill. Pretty sure it was close to 300 players, 3 guilds combining to unseat the Lotus Cult cockblock they had on the RZTWL encounter. Was a big thread on the old FoH forums on this episode.

As I said, there was plenty of chaos, but "willing to do the most to win, whatever "the most" implies" was not the norm, sorry. Other guilds could mess things up too easily back then. Crashing zones was a reality. Guilds weighed cost/benefit more carefully.
 

Zaide

TLP Idealist
3,741
4,398
I think we are in the "exception vs the norm" territory here Zaide. The norm was not to go full retard. But, if that failed, then full retard came into play.

I was in the guild zerg of RZTWL that caused SOE to put flag limits and raid # limits into game. We crashed the zone (ie, almost everyone wnt LD or dropped to 1 fps), but we got the kill. Pretty sure it was close to 300 players, 3 guilds combining to unseat the Lotus Cult cockblock they had on the RZTWL encounter. Was a big thread on the old FoH forums on this episode.

As I said, there was plenty of chaos, but "willing to do the most to win, whatever "the most" implies" was not the norm, sorry. Other guilds could mess things up too easily back then. Crashing zones was a reality. Guilds weighed cost/benefit more carefully.

The most does not equal the dumbest shit you can think of. It means the most, i.e. more than what the other guilds on your server are doing. If everyone on your server is still fucking around in Blackburrow then "the most" isn't very much. If they're racing you to targets five times a week then "the most" is going to be a lot more. Every top guild is doing what the other guilds on their server are unable to or incapable of doing, that is THE definition of a top guild. That's what makes you the best at literally anything in life, you do the what the other participants can't or are unwilling to do. This naturally escalates and it's the reason why the records of today crush the records of yesterday in every sport, and it's why they'll continue to improve in the future.
 
4,107
4,043
The most does not equal the dumbest shit you can think of. It means the most, i.e. more than what the other guilds on your server are doing. If everyone on your server is still fucking around in Blackburrow then "the most" isn't very much. If they're racing you to targets five times a week then "the most" is going to be a lot more. Every top guild is doing what the other guilds on their server are unable to or incapable of doing, that is THE definition of a top guild. That's what makes you the best at literally anything in life, you do the what the other participants can't or are unwilling to do. This naturally escalates and it's the reason why the records of today crush the records of yesterday in every sport, and it's why they'll continue to improve in the future.

Zaide, no disrespect, but you are the person I was taking about. You seem to have no concept things used to be different in persistent online worlds. Thanks for proving my point!
 

Zaide

TLP Idealist
3,741
4,398
Zaide, no disrespect, but you are the person I was taking about. You seem to have no concept things used to be different in persistent online worlds. Thanks for proving my point!

You're strictly wrong. They never were different and never will be different, the only way you can change them is with external enforcement/rules applied to the players. You literally provided an example where you had to get 300 people to overcome another guild blocking your progression. That anecdote is the history of EQ in a nutshell. It's a zero sum game, there are finite resources and players who want those resources compete with one another for them. The players willing to do the most will always win at the expense of the losers. If you are a "raiding" guild and you consistently fail to raid because another guild is successful in preventing you then you cease to be a "raiding" guild at all.

The only time "sharing" happens is when two or more guilds reach a level of competition where they feel like the cost of out lasting their peers will levy too hefty a cost on their own guild. The reason it may have seemed different in EQ originally is because so many guilds were awful and were content to raid entire expansions behind the current content meaning the "most" that the top guilds ever had to do wasn't really that much to begin with.
 

Arbitrary

Tranny Chaser
27,161
72,034
Back in the early 2000s there used to be the Play Nice Policies.

Kill Stealing

Kill Stealing will now be regarded as disruption and will result in disciplinary action when witnessed by any EverQuest Customer Service Representative (EQCSR). The EQCSR will review these situations on an individual basis and issue a decision which is considered binding upon all parties involved. Kill Stealing is defined as the killing of a mob for any reason that is already fighting or pursuing another player or group.

The intent of this rule is discourage and make note of habitual Kill Stealers, not to punish those who honestly try to work together or those who make an honest mistake. Its enforcement by the EverQuest Customer Service Staff will reflect this philosophy.

Contested Spawns

There are cases where two or more groups wish to kill the same thing. In these cases, the groups are required to compromise. If an equitable compromise cannot be reached between the players prior to EverQuest Customer Service Staff involvement, the EQCSR will mandate a binding compromise. Refusing to abide by a compromise mandated by an EQCSR will be considered disruption. It is therefore strongly suggested that the groups make every attempt to reach a compromise that they can live with prior to involving an EQCSR, who may mandate a compromise that does not suit you to the extent that a player-devised compromise would.

Note: A "group" in this case is defined as a party of one or more characters that are united in a common belief or goal and are capable of completing that goal.

Foul Language

Excessive use of foul language in an inappropriate context, including swear words, real-world racial slurs, and other language that is not consistent with the fantasy environment and designed to hurt, will be considered a disruption. The existence of the filter (/filter) is not a license to be profane.

Harassment

Harassment is defined as specifically targeting another player or group of players to harm or inconvenience them. Harassment can take many forms, as it goes to the state-of-mind of the person or party on the receiving end of the action. However, in order to account for those who are excessively thin-skinned, the EQCSR involved will make a determination as to whether or not the average person would feel "harassed" and act accordingly.

Zone/Area Disruption

Zone/Area Disruption is defined as any activity designed to harm or inconvenience a number of groups rather than a specific player or group of players. This includes things such as:

Monopolizing most or all of the kills in an area.
Deliberately blocking a doorway or narrow area so other players cannot get past.
Refusing to cooperate with the other parties at a contested spawn site after having been instructed to do so by an EQCSR.
Making excessive and inappropriate use of zone-wide communications (/shout, /ooc, /auction).
Reports of Fraud
Fraud in all transactions between players will result in disciplinary action when confirmed by an internal EQCSR. Fraud is defined as falsely representing one’s intentions to make a gain at another’s expense.


Guilds

Disciplinary issues involving guilds will also be addressed on a broader basis. Guilds whose members habitually violate any of the Rules of Conduct or Play Nice Policies may be disbanded. In addition, monopolizing numerous spawn areas with the intent to exclude other players will not be permitted. If investigated and verified by an internal EQCSR, monopolizing will result in the disbanding of the guild.

Training NPCs

The intentional training of NPCs will result in immediate disciplinary action when witnessed by an EQCSR. We are aware that accidents often happen causing unintentional trains, and will scrutinize each report of this activity closely.

Abuse

Though the following have always been in the GM/Guide FAQ, this letter is probably a good place to reiterate some of the items that we consider abuse:

Hate Mongering - participation in or propagation of Hate literature, behavior, or propaganda related to real -world characteristics.

Sexual Abuse or Harassment - untoward and unwelcome advances of a graphic and sexual nature. This includes virtual rape, overt sexual overtures, and stalking of a sexual nature.

Attempting to Defraud a CS Representative - Petitioning with untrue information with the intention of receiving benefits as a result. This includes reporting bug deaths, experience or item loss, or accusing other players of wrongdoing without basis for it.

Impersonating a Customer Service Representative - falsely representing yourself to another player as a Guide or a Verant Interactive employee.

CS Personnel Abuse - sending excessive /tells to a CS Representative, excessively using say or other channels to communicate to a CS Representative, making physical threats, or using abusive language against a CS Representative.

Using Threats of Retribution by GM Friends - attempting to convince another player that they have no recourse in a disagreement because favoritism is shown to one of the parties by the Verant Interactive or Guide staff.

Look at the shit that Sony put in place, that players tried to use against each other, and that GMs had to try and mediate. This was most certainly different. It was also shit, was enforced unequally (and shoddily), and often used by players to bully other players.

Those rules aside there were also some odd little windows here and there. Torvonnilous launched maybe a month or two before the Kunark launch and that server that was absurdly friended. Need before greed was the standard even in pick up groups with strangers and even with big ticket items, there was a calendar that was dutifully followed, and even into Velious there just were not enough level 60 of the right quality to even form a second uber guild. There was Blades of Wrath and that was it. Cutthroat asshattery just wasn't much of a thing.

Later I ended up on Saryrn. The entire culture of the server from the bottom to the top was different. Asshattery was the norm. There was the uber guild that had been uber forever that was slowly getting dethroned by the up and coming uber guild and it was a mess. Politicking, poaching, douchebaggery, spotty GM involvement, and so on. It was like an entirely different game.

I do have some fondness for how carebear Torv was but I sure as shit don't miss all the PNP rules laywering I saw on Saryrn. Overall I prefer how it works on these prog servers. Everyone has to decide for themselves their own level of involvement. Competition is swift and direct and there isn't anyone to go cry to if you don't get you way. Losing the race today is a real incentive to not lose the race tomorrow. The only time things start to fall apart is if one guild is truly dominate and everyone else just kinda quits. Phinny had something like 15 guilds clear Vex Thal so I guess instanced raiding keeps everyone at the table.
 

Vaclav

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
12,650
877
PNP started to come into place as things started to dissolve on a few servers, it wasn't in place until something like late, late Velious or early Luclin - for most of what people consider "old school" interguild respect, it's irrelevant. (Although do note, since server GMs were allowed to set their own rulings completely before PNP it's not impossible that some servers had something similar in place before it's official inception)

And Sadre: Something you need to keep in mind with the "difference" to how things appear applies in part in my assumption with what age people were at the time. Those of us that played seriously in early EQ that were 20+ seem to have a much different perspective than those that were younger. (Although to be fair, I've never clarified Zaide's age, but pretty sure he's low 30's - and presuming from your own "get off my lawn with that shit" attitude you're "old" gamingwise like myself).

I look at it these days as similar to how differently us old folks that learned to socialize pre-social media/online versus those that were raised on it. To me, I try treat online social media/forums/etc as if they're an extension of RL with the same respect due/etc. (even my social faux pas are shared RL). Whereas I often see people in the following generation that were raised online seem to have a real dichotomy between RL and online attitude. (Fortunately the super young generations seem to be shifting back though from what I've seen)

Arb: Yep, thank god for instancing - it really evened the playing field and made it so people weren't forced into the chaos to raid. But for those that liked the chaos it still allowed it as an option, the best of both worlds. It's not a perfect fit to old school, since instancing never existed, but it was a good band-aid to get as close as practical with current resources for sure.
 

Ambiturner

Ssraeszha Raider
16,040
19,501
You sure about PNP coming late Velious/Luclin? I seem to remember it in Kunark.

Sadre Spinegnawer Sadre Spinegnawer Either way, Quellious didn't have a single dominant guild early on and most raids involved multiple guilds. In a situation like that you'll get a lot more cooperation because you don't have a choice. When you get a single guild that has the numbers and is more skilled/dedicated then things change.

It sounds like Lotus Cult became that guild in PoP and did exactly what you're claiming never happened.
 

alavaz

Trakanon Raider
2,001
713
I played on Saryrn and veeshan. It was like Zaide said at the top. We didn't race only because we knew it wouldn't be allowed. Reputation also didnt matter. I mean, it did kind of if you wanted to group or join a pickup or whatever, but the guild rep itself was irrelevant. I rolled with some of the biggest shit bags ive ever seen. Had a fair portion of my own guild on ignore, but because I wanted to kill the coolest shit first, that was the price I paid.
 

Zaide

TLP Idealist
3,741
4,398
PNP started to come into place as things started to dissolve on a few servers, it wasn't in place until something like late, late Velious or early Luclin - for most of what people consider "old school" interguild respect, it's irrelevant. (Although do note, since server GMs were allowed to set their own rulings completely before PNP it's not impossible that some servers had something similar in place before it's official inception)

And Sadre: Something you need to keep in mind with the "difference" to how things appear applies in part in my assumption with what age people were at the time. Those of us that played seriously in early EQ that were 20+ seem to have a much different perspective than those that were younger. (Although to be fair, I've never clarified Zaide's age, but pretty sure he's low 30's - and presuming from your own "get off my lawn with that shit" attitude you're "old" gamingwise like myself).

I look at it these days as similar to how differently us old folks that learned to socialize pre-social media/online versus those that were raised on it. To me, I try treat online social media/forums/etc as if they're an extension of RL with the same respect due/etc. (even my social faux pas are shared RL). Whereas I often see people in the following generation that were raised online seem to have a real dichotomy between RL and online attitude. (Fortunately the super young generations seem to be shifting back though from what I've seen)

Arb: Yep, thank god for instancing - it really evened the playing field and made it so people weren't forced into the chaos to raid. But for those that liked the chaos it still allowed it as an option, the best of both worlds. It's not a perfect fit to old school, since instancing never existed, but it was a good band-aid to get as close as practical with current resources for sure.

I was in my late teenage years on Vulak as a point of reference.
 

Vaclav

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
12,650
877
You sure about PNP coming late Velious/Luclin? I seem to remember it in Kunark.

Nope, rulebook for CS was very short back then. It was the source of our first official rule though - the "hands-off" zones rule.

First time I've got PNP mentioned by name in the guide manual was the Oct 2001 update.

Alavaz: Not doing it because the playerbase didn't allow it is precisely what we're talking about. There's a huge difference between rotations and leapfrogging/etc. - rotations I saw on none of my servers I experienced, that's far different from civil competition.