Going to College as an Adult

Ha, there was a response in favor of my post.

"Great post I wasn't planning on doing any discussions today and was just kind of seeing what I had to do this week, but I saw this post and had to reply, I feel the same way I've taken about the same amount of social science classes that you have and my thought process is always ok this is useless I don't need this for my career let me just try to do enough to pass and ill focus on my other class that is going to be needed, I feel all the social sciences are useless and are just here to make us pay more money for mandatory classes when in reality I should just be taking my core computer classes and that's it I have no use for anything taught in the social sciences and won't use any of it in my career but here we are.
I had to rant as well, a great post though I feel the same way as you."


Also one that wasn't in agreement, but not completely against it either.

"I see where you are coming from with your interpretation of humanities. Personally, I come from a very technical and analytical background. Since high school, my main program area was IT Networking. I also took Calculus, Physics, Economics, Biology, Chemistry, Geoscience, and Psychology. Although I do enjoy finding “exact” answers to problems, I also have to realize that our world is not so clear-cut. What makes the human race unique is the ability to have complex emotions and learn from archived works of the past. The arts have become a way of communicative expression that cannot be tied down by logistics alone. Thanks for sharing."

Good stuff, the teacher actually bothered responding to my rant. It's racking up comments lately.

I'd challenge you to open your mind somewhat to how the humanities AND the sciences function. First, this is NOT a social science class. Humanities and social sciences are related but very different. Sociology or the study of government might be considered a social science. Social sciences use data and scientific studies to reach objective conclusions about culture and societal systems. The humanities is more about how we learn, the big ideas of our society, and how that culture is expressed. It's certainly about more than just "feelings." And in order to make a successful claim in a humanities field, simply saying "this is how I feel" is rarely if ever an adequate argument. One must still prove one's point with clear evidence and support.

While I won't address the political aspect of your post, as this is not the forum to discuss politics, I will say that your positions themselves are based on specific interpretations of events and situations that many would dispute and often do. Therefore, such assertions by their very nature are subjective. Like feelings.

And the thing about science is that, yes, there are absolutes in terms of the fundamental laws of the universe (though, even there it can sometimes depend on context), but science is done by humans. Therefore, science is always changing, adapting and evolving, based on our understanding. So that the same conclusions can mean very different things over time. We have a very different scientific understanding of natural phenomena, for instance, than we did fifty, or even ten years ago. We are always learning new things and incorporating them into our working knowledge of the universe.

I hope you are able to find some value in the course and the things we explore here. It certainly can't be enjoyable to resent what you are required to learn at a university.

I wanted to do another update on this topic. After I made the initial rant post about social science classes, quite a few other students made posts in a similar fashion. I found that amusing. Anyway, today started the new "week" of our 8 week long class. The instructor decided to make this announcement to the class.

Why take Humanities Courses
Given last week's discussion, I feel the need to address something that came up on a few posts. Some students seem to feel that required humanities courses for tech or business fields is a waste of time or will be useless for your careers. The mere fact that a university like SNHU requires them should tell you that the administrators and faculty certainly believe otherwise. And no, I don't think it's a scam to get more money from you. The university system has plenty of ways to extort you (don't get me started on student loans and skyrocketing tuition costs) but making you take humanities classes is not one of them.
I've noted this in some of my discussion responses, but do I think that it will be important for you to remember who painted what and when for your career? No, of course not. I know none of (or at least very few) that come through this program are going to be art historians. But with humanities classes, you're not just learning facts and dates. On the other hand, you're not just learning how to "feel" about art, literature or music. Rather, you're learning valuable skills that will benefit you in the work world, no matter what your career is. Skills like communication, critical thinking, analysis, and in some ways even more important, compassion, cultural understanding and empathy.
Now, for me personally, I've devoted my life to academia, writing, and the arts, as a teacher, but also as a performer and producer. Other than a side job as a paralegal and many other different types of administrative and data entry jobs over the years (among many other experiences, including retail, food service and catering, warehouse work, being a nurses assistant in college), I do not have experience in tech or business careers.
However, I have many friends who DO, including some of the most creative people I know, such as performers, dancers, and cosplayers, who all have tech day jobs. I was having a discussion with some of them recently and I wanted to share some insights with you that may be helpful.
One friend related to me how co-workers are "consistently told they need to work on their soft skills (see: people skills, empathy, compassion, critical thinking, and communication) if they want to be promoted into leadership roles." This person related how they are seen by their managers as impressively well rounded with regards to those skills and they attribute this to their humanities courses and music minor.
Another related the following to me:

"As someone who has been a hiring manager for years, I can tell that liberal arts graduates are the best problem solvers. I use my writing and communication skills all the time to propose projects, obtain funding, and make presentations to the sales force and customers."

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Finally, another successful friend told me how some of the best programmers that they've worked with have arts and humanities backgrounds. They put it this way:

"You can teach someone to code or design interfaces fairly easily, but that's junior-level work. What's harder to do - and what you need senior-level people to do - is be able to communicate and think creatively. Architect. Train others. Write. Organize. Speak. The question is never really about how to write the code once you're a few years in - the real question is *what* code should be written. Listening. Asking questions. Learning new things. Working with others. And then getting others on board with the best solution."

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I hope this demonstrates how useful exploring the humanities can be in tech and business careers, even if you don't have interest in the subject matter itself. The skills you learn in these kinds of classes can be invaluable.

Sanrith Descartes said:

"Rather, you're learning valuable skills that will benefit you in the work world, no matter what your career is."

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To be fair, learning to deal with pointless bullshit is a pretty important skill in most careers.

Sanrith Descartes said:

"Rather, you're learning valuable skills that will benefit you in the work world, no matter what your career is."

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edit: weird, doublepost... I think that's the first time that's ever happened to me here. But I'll make the best of it: I think college courses do teach you a lot of things about functioning in the "real world", but they're not things they tell you they're teaching. For example, the literal point of group work is to teach you that your co-workers will be useless, and you've got to suck it up and deal with it unless you want to fail too. (and the useless people learn the opposite lesson of course.)

Sanrith Descartes said:

But that is a skill everyone should have learned before they left high school. You should not need college courses to teach you to do it.

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I dunno, I still have trouble with it

To be honest, I thought your initial essay was needlessly inflammatory, and I thought the instructor's first reply was pretty reasonable. But then the instructor's follow-up post... yikes.

you're learning valuable skills that will benefit you in the work world, no matter what your career is. Skills like communication, critical thinking, analysis, and in some ways even more important, compassion, cultural understanding and empathy.

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Sounds like someone trying hard to justify their job.


Engineering and science disciplines provide critical thinking and analysis skills to a much higher (and objectively useful) degree, and the coursework really just sets the stage for real-world problem solving. Communication skills are also not something you learn in a classroom, especially when being taught by an instructor like this whose career sounds like it consists of collecting some humanities degrees and working odd jobs. "Critical thinking" assignments in humanities courses are generally a joke, and they do not prepare you to be an effective professional communicator.

Compassion and empathy are easy to develop If you're not a psychopath, and you'd better have developed these skills waaayyy before college or you are probably already a lost cause. Nobody should be counting on a college humanities course as the tipping point that determines whether someone can develop compassion and empathy. I won't comment on cultural understanding because I think that's just a byproduct of compassion and empathy.

Unfortunately, a lot of humanities people end up trained to believe that empathy and compassion and other soft skills are a substitute for critical thinking and analytical methods. Then, they latch on to a poorly-thought out idea and substitute the evidence and data (you know, the key ingredients to *real* critical thinking) with moral posturing, appeals to emotion, etc. And when you spent four years (or let's be realistic, 4-5 years) and $100k+ on a humanities degree you have to justify it somehow, so you become convinced that your arguments simply cannot be grasped without specialized humanities training. In fact, the next quote is a perfect example of that:

One friend related to me how co-workers are "consistently told they need to work on their soft skills (see: people skills, empathy, compassion, critical thinking, and communication) if they want to be promoted into leadership roles." This person related how they are seen by their managers as impressively well rounded with regards to those skills and they attribute this to their humanities courses and music minor.

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This is a perfect example of humanities-style "critical thinking" failing in action. First of all, this story sounds completely made up. But assuming it's actually true: I guess the argument here is that humanities provides special skills that can unlock professional success? And the implication is that people who lack humanities training are less likely to get promoted and succeed professionally? It's a very bold hypothesis, supported by one flimsy piece of (made up...) anecdotal evidence, and if it were true that would be a groundbreaking finding. But of course, these soft skills can't be quantified, can't really be studied, and so we have to trust the story about this one guy with his music degree that got a promotion while his coworkers floundered in their careers because they didn't take a humanities course that would have taught them people skills!! Does anyone really believe that humanities coursework, music minors, and stuff like that correlates with promotions, earnings, etc? It's a ridiculous argument on its face, but when the facts are against you the only way to argue is to make the bold claims like and hope nobody spends the time to refute you. I'm not saying that minoring in music or taking some humanities courses is a bad thing, but treating it like the key to success is absurd.

some of the most creative people I know, such as performers, dancers, and cosplayers, who all have tech day jobs

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So did they land those tech jobs because they learned tech skills, or because they developed empathy and compassion during their humanities courses in college? Would an engineering degree prevent these people from using their spare time to pursue their hobbies?

liberal arts graduates are the best problem solvers.

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That's... not true, by pretty much any metric. Unless your problem has nothing to do with math, science, engineering, medicine, business, finance, etc.

I use my writing and communication skills all the time to propose projects, obtain funding, and make presentations to the sales force and customers."

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More vague claims. This time, the implication is that humanities coursework will just... make you a better writer and communicator. Or in other words, people without humanities training have inferior writing and communication skills and therefore are less likely to successfully obtain funding and complete projects? How, specifically, does a humanities degree help you accomplish any of this? It doesn't matter - just trust that you need these humanities courses because without them you'll once again fail to achieve professional success! In reality: if you're naturally good at presentations and sales then you'll probably have success regardless of your degree, and overall your career will probably benefit more if that degree is technical in nature.

There's always going to be that humanities major who points out that *they* were successful and *they* are in charge of a team of engineers and *they* couldn't have gotten there without their religious studies degree because it made them a super writer. And there's always going to be the antisocial programmer who should be kept behind closed doors away from other people. I'm not saying that anyone with science coursework is automatically a better thinker and problem-solver than someone who majored in humanities, but if you randomly picked a thousand engineering majors and a thousand humanities majors and told both groups they needed to coordinate to write a project proposal, obtain funding, and make a presentation to a sales force, we all know the smart money is on the engineers. Unfortunately that's an emotionless statistical argument, not an anecdote, so it might not make sense to the humanities major.

So this is the final week of this current Humanities bullshit class. And surprise, surprise, it's time for ANOTHER forum type post assignment. It was an easy one this week. What would you suggest to students in the future, so here was my post.


Well, that was fun. I didn't particularly enjoy the class, but I made it through. I still dislike the idea behind this type of class, but I don't blame our instructor for that. It's merely the fact that it is, so props for him on capitalizing on its existence. Though I do not suspect he would take this as a compliment.
Anyway, all that aside, I don't have any meaningful words of wisdom for future students. As you go through life, you will deal with countless things that do not appeal to you. That's part of the joy of being alive. So your responsibility as an adult is to suck it up and move along. That is if you share my mentality on any of this. You'll have gained something by dealing with the class, though I don't yet know what that is. Also, I wouldn't listen to people regarding "hiring teams want to see a background in humanities", because most don't care. If you're too deep into humanities, your attitude will likely cause HR position to become non-essential, as there will be no problems. So there will always be a need for problems. Even minor ones will helpl propagate their existence. So good luck. Don't let it frustrate you too much. It's only an 8 week class of discomfort, so you can tolerate it.


And the teacher of the class responded with this:
Jonathan, I regret that you don't see value in this class or the field of humanities. However, I can tell you with extreme confidence, that of the many, many people I know who work in business and IT fields, every one of them has said that their employers (or these people are employers themselves) have noted that they look for people with at least some background in the humanities and the liberal arts for their higher levels positions. And public surveys and studies bear this out. Your statement that hiring teams "don't care" about a humanities background is simply not accurate, on the whole. Here are some articles that give some information on this, including one from the Harvard Business Review:
Yes, Employers Do Value Liberal Arts Degrees
As Tech Companies Hire More Liberal Arts Majors, More Students Are Choosing STEM Degrees - EdSurge News
AAC&U survey finds employers want candidates with liberal arts skills but cite 'preparedness gap'

Enjoy.