Gotham

Cantatus_sl said:

I've actually thought the opposite. The show would benefit fromlessBatman. The show should've started with Bruce Wayne dying along with his parents. That would've put a whole different spin on the universe. It's no longer Gordon keeping Bruce's seat warm as the city's moral crusader, but him now being Gotham's last hope. And that also suddenly frees up how they tell the villains' stories. It's no longer knowing Penguin is going to make it since he has to take on Batman someday. If the show is going to be about Gordon, put him in a role where he's actually free to make an impact and isn't just in a holding pattern until Bruce Wayne hits puberty.

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That would have confused the hell out of 90% of the average viewing audience. As much as I love alternate universe/one-shot stories that mix things up, the vast majority of people who watch TV/movies based on comics expect certain things from the characters they know. Changing that up too much would just lead to confusion and frustration. I think the show runners were aware of this, and theydidintroduce so many characters in the first episode to make sure the average viewers had a certain level of familiarity with the world rather to make them comfortable.

I think the year or so before his parents died and the lead up to their death would have been great. You have the only rich guy in the city who wants to change things, fighting with the government, random people inside his company doing backroom dealings with Falcone etc. Show how bad gotham became and what was the reasons of it tipping over. Then run the show by showing the different mobs like Boardwalk Empire style and show how corrupt and violent they are making the police their bitch/running everything. Then slowly introduce random batman villains who would be alive and doing crime.

Ya Batman is a big thing that runs his comics and movies. Yet it's also the Gotham that sets the major set in his life and the reasons why he even turned into Batman and keeps going. So I think the city's "personality" is just as prevalent as Batman's. This isn't a Batman show. This is Gotham and what it is. Should have shown us what it was during season one, then worked in more as the series continued.

McCheese_sl said:

That would have confused the hell out of 90% of the average viewing audience. As much as I love alternate universe/one-shot stories that mix things up, the vast majority of people who watch TV/movies based on comics expect certain things from the characters they know. Changing that up too much would just lead to confusion and frustration. I think the show runners were aware of this, and theydidintroduce so many characters in the first episode to make sure the average viewers had a certain level of familiarity with the world rather to make them comfortable.

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If the entire premise of the show was based on a world without Batman and advertised as such, I don't think people are so stupid that the concept would confuse them. And honestly, this show basically is an alternate universe as it is. It's a universe where Gordon runs into the entirety of Batman's rogue's gallery before Batman's voice dropped and Eartha Kitt was reincarnated for some reason.

But, really, if you want to do a show like this, I think you have to go one way or the other. Either Batman needs to be a prominent figure (like Flash and Arrow) or you go the other direction and not involve him at all (similar to Agents of SHIELD's relationship with the Avengers). Having Bruce Wayne occasionally pop up and the Wayne's murder investigated when it's convenient feels sort of half-assed and noncommittal. It doesn't tie the show together in as meaningful of a way as they seem to think.

Basically everything Batman related has been throwaway so far and could go by any other name. You have the sad story boy who's parents died who is the main arch storyline to solve their murder. You have the street wise girl who is the golden ticket to eventually solving the murders but you need to gain her unwilling trust. You have the fresh faced cop surrounded by corruption trying to fight insurmountable odds in both his own police unit and the political structure. You have the ambitious underling trying to usurp the crime lord. You have an even more ambitious underling who can't get out of his own way and is constantly fucking up. Literally this could be called any other name and it would function the same way. The DC/Batman license is currently bringing absolutely nothing to the table other than saving the writings from having to name a few characters.

basically, Fox am stupid for paying the cash they did for those naming rights. they could have just called it something lame like NYC Noir and probably had just as much success. they probably had some kind of scheme in the first place when they tried to buy WB and figured they could pop out a joker or other superhero whenever they felt like.

Cantatus_sl said:

But, really, if you want to do a show like this, I think you have to go one way or the other. Either Batman needs to be a prominent figure (like Flash and Arrow) or you go the other direction and not involve him at all (similar to Agents of SHIELD's relationship with the Avengers). Having Bruce Wayne occasionally pop up and the Wayne's murder investigated when it's convenient feels sort of half-assed and noncommittal. It doesn't tie the show together in as meaningful of a way as they seem to think.

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I don't disagree. I think the show writers would probably have preferred the 2nd choice (not have him involved at all), they just figured if you are going to call a show 'Gotham', you need to have some sort of hook to Batman to get viewers to tune in. Having Batman's younger version of his rogue's gallery I think complicates the show even more since I don't they they are interesting enough (exception Penguin) to stand on their own and the show has committed to making this about Gordon so they have to tie into Gordon. If we were comparing it to SHIELD, it would be like that show had the main Avenger villians in it without any of the Avengers. This show's ultimate problem is it's main focus character (Gordon) just isn't good (whether that's a result of writing or acting or both).

You've also got to keep in mind that the only major villain that they've actually given a significant amount of screen time to is Penguin, and he's the only one that's been interesting. Their reluctance to flesh out a story for anyone else makes the show turn into a very weak monster of the week. So far they've all been single episode ones, although the Electrocutioner looks to maybe cover two episodes.

As a non-comic reader, I have a hard time giving a shit about some character that was written in the 1960's that appeared in an offshoot DC comic briefly. Give me a fleshed out story about the Joker before he became the Joker though, and I might be interested. A cameo of someone who "may" be the Joker every 4th episode though? Yawn.

The problem is that the Joker's backstory has always been a mystery. Even his "official" origin story from Killing Joke is rife with controversy of if it is just the ramblings of a mad man. Then again Gotham itself is taking massive liberties and origin offshoots so I guess giving the Joker yet another one wouldn't hurt anything.

I liked the idea of not killing off the Waynes right at the start. It would have been a great build-up and kept the show a bit more interesting. Every episode could have had the Wayne family walk down an alley, and everyone would be like "Oh shit! They're going to die this time!" only to have them walk out the other side just fine.

I feel that would get old after like 2 episodes. Why would the Wayne cast even need to appear in the show which is focused on Gordon and cleaning up Gotham? It would add even more characters which you knew the outcome to the cast which is already annoying enough as it is.

Tenks_sl said:

The problem is that the Joker's backstory has always been a mystery. Even his "official" origin story from Killing Joke is rife with controversy of if it is just the ramblings of a mad man. Then again Gotham itself is taking massive liberties and origin offshoots so I guess giving the Joker yet another one wouldn't hurt anything.

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Don't focus so much on the Joker then. It could be any of the major villains. We've been introduced to a few, but they're all incredibly minor. But for actual villains in the show we get dog shit characters that most people have never heard of.

My complaint isn't even about how they're using unknown villains though. It's that they're ALL one off villains. There's no overarching story with any of them.

Tenks_sl said:

I feel that would get old after like 2 episodes. Why would the Wayne cast even need to appear in the show which is focused on Gordon and cleaning up Gotham? It would add even more characters which you knew the outcome to the cast which is already annoying enough as it is.

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I was mostly joking with that post, but I think the idea behind having the Waynes in the show would be to give it more of an overarching story. The show started with a bang and suddenly Gotham is (even more of) a mess. We were told several times how important the Waynes were for Gotham, and how their death marked a big turning point. I think it would have been MUCH more effective to show this over several episode than simply tell us. I think it would have been interesting to have a season or so showing things gradually getting worse in Gotham, with Gordon trying to cope with it all as things get worse and worse. It would culminate with the Waynes getting killed and the mafia taking the forefront.

Elurin kind of touched on one of my biggest gripes with the show: it lacks a good, central overarching plot. Right now it's just a bunch of different characters all doing their own things, with some minor stories (Fish's takeover of the mob, Gordon vaguely looking for the Waynes' killer, Selena posing like a cat in various precarious places). One thing I've seen the showrunners repeat again and again is how Gotham itself is supposed to be a character. It would have been way better to slowly develop this "character" over the first season through the Waynes and see its downfall before getting to the point where the show actually started.

Anyway, it's all moot because that's not the show we got. I'm still really enjoying this so I can't complain too much. As I said, however, I think the two best parts of the show are the mafia stuff (Penguin/Marone/Falcone) and Bullock. I hope they wrap up the Gordon-in-Arkham storyline quickly so we can get back to having plenty of Bullock.

I'm still liking it, too. After talking to a coworker last night about the Gambit movie and hearing him talk about how his Creole accent was such a huge and vital part of the character I remembered why comic book purists get ignored, they are going to find something to complain about anyways, so you may as well just make something that everyone else enjoys from the start. Gotham as a cesspool of crime and corruption? Check. Lots of exceptionally hot women and insanity running amok? That's always good.

Only thing I'd really like to see is Gordon stepping up his game a bit. Push the system to its limits so Bruce gets to see why he has to work outside it. Also, seduce Montoya and have a threesome with Barbara before whoever gets to be Joker in this version of Batman ganks her. Would be a great way to finish the season.

Jim has higher aspirations. He's trying to get Barbara hooked up with Hooker from Firefly girl then hit that 3some. It would be glorious.

i will agree, they killed the waynes off too quickly, what was their fucking rush? they are barely doing anything with anyone cept this mooney bitch and penguin. oh yeah and gordon was chucked off the police force. oh but we had to kill off those waynes because god forbid we build their characters first, allowing us to give a damn about their deaths other than it being a batman origin contrivance. an origin contrivance for a character this show will never be allowed to showcase. bra-fucking-vo

Like I said previously this show needs more open ended and question mark storylines not fewer. We all know Fish isn't (shouldn't) beat out the crime lords. We know everything works out roses for Penguin. We know eventually Nigma from GCPD turns crazy. We know Jim ends up with Barbara. We know eventually things between Selena and Ivy turn sour. What we don't need are more throw away scenes of Thomas Wayne trying to take the political route to clean up Gotham when we all know that he'll get murdered.

Vandyn_sl said:

Having Batman's younger version of his rogue's gallery I think complicates the show even more since I don't they they are interesting enough (exception Penguin) to stand on their own and the show has committed to making this about Gordon so they have to tie into Gordon. If we were comparing it to SHIELD, it would be like that show had the main Avenger villians in it without any of the Avengers. This show's ultimate problem is it's main focus character (Gordon) just isn't good (whether that's a result of writing or acting or both).

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Yeah, and I think a lot of the problem is their hands are tied in many respects when it comes to these villains. The first episode, when Gordon was ordered to kill Penguin, it had no tension, because we knew the Penguin wasn't going to die. He can't. We know Batman faces the Penguin someday, so Penguin has unlimited plot armor from here until the end of the show. And really, even with the villain they created for the show, there really aren't many ways they can go. If they stick to Batman canon, Falcone isn't going anywhere. Fish can't take him down, because Falcone and Maroni continue to have a stranglehold on Gotham until Batman is created. Fish is really the only major character whose fate we don't automatically know, so they might as well just have her wearing red shirts.

One of the most difficult things about doing a prequel - which is effectively what this show is - is people already know the ending so it's really hard to have any surprises. Look at the Star Wars prequels: They kept putting Obi-Wan and Anakin in these dangerous scenarios, but so what? We know they live to fight another day.

Really, as much as I like the character, one of the best things they could've done with this show was actually having Gordon kill Penguin. It would've shown from the very first episode that no one is safe and that this is their won world and they aren't playing by the rules. Instead, they basically just reaffirmed that Penguin will never be in any serious danger and will always get out of whatever situation he finds himself in. Same with Gordon, Harvey, Catwoman, Edward, Poison Ivy, Bruce, Alfred, etc.

Vandyn_sl said:

Having Batman's younger version of his rogue's gallery I think complicates the show even more since I don't they they are interesting enough (exception Penguin) to stand on their own and the show has committed to making this about Gordon so they have to tie into Gordon. If we were comparing it to SHIELD, it would be like that show had the main Avenger villians in it without any of the Avengers. This show's ultimate problem is it's main focus character (Gordon) just isn't good (whether that's a result of writing or acting or both).

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Yeah, and I think a lot of the problem is their hands are tied in many respects when it comes to these villains. The first episode, when Gordon was ordered to kill Penguin, it had no tension, because we knew the Penguin wasn't going to die. He can't. We know Batman faces the Penguin someday, so Penguin has unlimited plot armor from here until the end of the show. And really, even with the villain they created for the show, there really aren't many ways they can go. If they stick to Batman canon, Falcone isn't going anywhere. Fish can't take him down, because Falcone and Maroni continue to have a stranglehold on Gotham until Batman is created. Fish is really the only major character whose fate we don't automatically know, so they might as well just have her wearing red shirts.

One of the most difficult things about doing a prequel - which is effectively what this show is - is people already know the ending so it's really hard to have any surprises. Look at the Star Wars prequels: They kept putting Obi-Wan and Anakin in these dangerous scenarios, but so what? We know they live to fight another day.

Really, as much as I like the character, one of the best things they could've done with this show was actually having Gordon kill Penguin. It would've shown from the very first episode that no one is safe and that this is their won world and they aren't playing by the rules. Instead, they basically just reaffirmed that Penguin will never be in any serious danger and will always get out of whatever situation he finds himself in. Same with Gordon, Harvey, Catwoman, Edward, Poison Ivy, Bruce, Alfred, etc.

If the characters are well-written and well-acted, it doesn't matter if we already know their ultimate outcomes. We know that Bullock isn't going to die, but he's damn fun to watch. Same with Penguin. The problem isn't that we know the outcome for most of the characters, but that they're underdeveloped or just plain boring.

so was this shit on tonight?