Gov't Regulation for Games Discussion- DLC related

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mkopec

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Dude you are on drugs.

You dont play the game, I do. i have over 100 hours into it and know exactly what people have equipped since it fucking shows you every time you die to them.

Everything done in this game is to acquire BP to spawn the heroes. Any of that health regen, heat reduction bullshit is not used because it does not hep to get BP only damaging or helping your teammates does.
 

AladainAF

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Do you want me to log in to LoL and PoE and screenshot the options to purchase randomized chests?

I looked into PoE's random packs, and I see this. If this is the case for LoL, it's not gambling. You're not putting anything at risk, even if these items are tradeable.

upload_2017-11-29_13-23-59.png
 

AladainAF

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Yes,I fundamentally disagree with the nature of digital products. I believe as we continue to, for lack of a better term "digitize" consumer products and services, they need to be held to the same standards as physical goods.

They cannot be. If you buy a movie on amazon.com and you want to transfer it to someone else who does not have an amazon.com account, how would you do this?
 

Utnayan

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You dont play the game, I do. i have over 100 hours into it and know exactly what people have equipped since it fucking shows you every time you die to them.

Everything done in this game is to acquire BP to spawn the heroes. Any of that health regen, heat reduction bullshit is not used because it does not hep to get BP only damaging or helping your teammates does.

hqdefault.jpg
 
  • 2Worf
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mkopec

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Guy which does not have the game nor played it other than some beta (or alpha? lul) is going to argue which skills people use in the game with a dude that played it every day for the past 2 weeks. Yeah lets go with that heat reduction, yeah that will make you slay! Or that health regen, in a game that you constantly rushing points and dying every min with ttk of .5 sec.
 

Vaclav

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Am I the only one starting to hope for government regulation just to watch the salt flow from the Meth-fiend?

I'd start pushing for government regulation of brushing habits right after if it did have that result. LOL.
 

Utnayan

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Guy which does not have the game nor played it other than some beta (or alpha? lul) is going to argue which skills people use in the game with a dude that played it every day for the past 2 weeks. Yeah lets go with that heat reduction, yeah that will make you slay! Or that health regen, in a game that you constantly rushing points and dying every min with ttk of .5 sec.


Sure buddy.


 

zombiewizardhawk

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Am I the only one starting to hope for government regulation just to watch the salt flow from the Meth-fiend?

It would probably make me less salty than most of the people who would eventually be impacted by it. I play a very few select games these days and have no problems one way or the other with MTX in games. Like i've said, if you don't like a product, don't buy it. If the government decides to fuck up the entire video game industry (or the game companies do it themselves) i'll just stop playing any of them.
I looked into PoE's random packs, and I see this. If this is the case for LoL, it's not gambling. You're not putting anything at risk, even if these items are tradeable.

View attachment 157107

Yes. They sell RNG boxes that are guaranteed to at least be worth the amount of the cheapest mtx possible reward in the pack but you can also get lucky and get one worth 10x the value of the pack. Would strong boxes be ok in every other game if they offered the most common, dirt cheap possibility for individual sale at the same price point as the rng box? That's what game companies will do if they have to before they just remove boxes from games. Judging from your previous posts on the subject i'm going to assume you'd be ok with this. All the people who are crying about how loot boxes and mtx are evil and need to be stopped would not suddenly start being ok with it.

Literally everything i've said about gambling has only been related to Vaclav (or anyone else who thinks rng box gambling is a problem) anyways since he's the one who started talking about how loot boxes being gambling was ruining the lives of children. Also, he didn't link any stories related to gambling ala CS:GO crates which can end up being worth a lot of real money, that you can actually sell (or could until somewhat recently, I know they cracked down on some of the CS:GO stuff a while ago). He linked stories to things like a kid spending $1400 on farmville.
 

AladainAF

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Yes. They sell RNG boxes that are guaranteed to at least be worth the amount of the cheapest mtx possible reward in the pack but you can also get lucky and get one worth 10x the value of the pack. Would strong boxes be ok in every other game if they offered the most common, dirt cheap possibility for individual sale at the same price point as the rng box?

Yes, absolutely. This would be fine. You know what you're getting, and you cannot lose because what you get is worth at least what you paid into it. Have you ever heard of a slot machine where you're guaranteed at least 100% RTP? Of course not, becuase then you're not gambling. :)

However, you still need to be careful that you don't cross into "predatory gaming" category. Again, this is really clear cut and basic here and very easy to make the distinction. I'm pretty sure that PoE doesn't cross anywhere close into that territory.
 

AladainAF

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Literally everything i've said about gambling has only been related to Vaclav (or anyone else who thinks rng box gambling is a problem) anyways since he's the one who started talking about how loot boxes being gambling was ruining the lives of children. Also, he didn't link any stories related to gambling ala CS:GO crates which can end up being worth a lot of real money, that you can actually sell (or could until somewhat recently, I know they cracked down on some of the CS:GO stuff a while ago). He linked stories to things like a kid spending $1400 on farmville.

Again, you're mixing the two issues.

To recap, there are TWO issues at play here.

1. Gambling in games.
2. Predatory gaming in games.

Spending $1400 in farmville has nothing whatsoever to do with gambling in games (As far as I'm aware, nothing in farmville can be traded)
 

zombiewizardhawk

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So, when the only option to purchase an item is when you get it as the reward from a loot box, does that not automatically make the default value of the most common item equivalent to that of the box? Why, then, should it matter whether the items in the box are also available for individual specific purchases or only available from an rng box?

Is the availability of mtx an act of predatory gaming? If someone decides to create 15 league of legends accounts and buy 100% of the available content on all 15 accounts, is that the fault of a predatory gaming company? If I decide to spend $300,000.00 buying stash tabs on PoE is that my fault or are they being predatory? Is farmville guilty of predatory gaming because some kid stole his moms credit card and spent $1400 (because Vaclav linked that story as an example of something the government needed to stop)?


I've already agreed with you that all the shady behind the scenes stuff is no good and that actual gambling (ie being able to sell your rng boxes for real money ala CS:GO with potentially big rewards) should probably be regulated the same way any other actual gambling (where you can make money) is regulated, by requiring the person to be 18 years old to do it. Unfortunately it's almost impossible to actually prevent a determined individual who is under the age of 18 from bypassing systems online.
 

Palum

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So according to some people here, if you could put money in a slot machine and out would pop grand prizes of software with non-transferable licenses, non-transferable cost-free leases for cars and luxury apartments, non-transferable free meals for life from a steak house, etc., this would not be gambling because there is no warranty of title (ergo no ability to resell for currency).

Interdasting

This whole position of "non transferable service agreements or licenses don't have a real value because they can't be sold or bartered away for USD!" is quite a shallow argument.
 
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  • 1Worf
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Palum

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They cannot be. If you buy a movie on amazon.com and you want to transfer it to someone else who does not have an amazon.com account, how would you do this?

Very easily, you require Amazon to facilitate transfer ownership to the other party since all digital purchases must contain implied title for the license, service, access, etc. They still may be required to have an Amazon account to login and access it (warranty of title does not eliminate the requirement for disclosure).

This isn't rocket surgery.
 

AladainAF

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Very easily, you require Amazon to facilitate transfer ownership to the other party since all digital purchases must contain implied title for the license, service, access, etc. They still may be required to have an Amazon account to login and access it (warranty of title does not eliminate the requirement for disclosure).

This isn't rocket surgery.

Who requires? The government? What verification of checks and balances need to be done to ensure the transfer is done? Where is the data stored of who actually owns the software?
 

AladainAF

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So according to some people here, if you could put money in a slot machine and out would pop grand prizes of software with non-transferable licenses, non-transferable cost-free leases for cars and luxury apartments, non-transferable free meals for life from a steak house, etc., this would not be gambling because there is no warranty of title (ergo no ability to resell for currency).

Interdasting

This whole position of "non transferable service agreements or licenses don't have a real value because they can't be sold or bartered away for USD!" is quite a shallow argument.

I hope you're not referring to anything I said because everything you just said is certainly gambling.
 

Palum

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I hope you're not referring to anything I said because everything you just said is certainly gambling.

No with you I disagree philosophically about the nature of digital goods and whether a vehicle or weapon in a game world should be considered chattel
 

Palum

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Who requires? The government? What verification of checks and balances need to be done to ensure the transfer is done? Where is the data stored of who actually owns the software?

No, common law with a modern understanding of digital products. If you buy a DVD, you do not own rights to the core IP. You have a piece of personal property which contains a digital copy of a movie and the license for personal use (viewing). However, no such title to the copy exists for digital purchases by default rather than by express written agreement. That's a problem.

So Amazon doesn't have to provide ANYTHING as a service, but there should be a written agreement, just like any normal physical product, that they are NOT giving title and only rights to access. They probably already do this, but it's probably hidden away in some T&C blurb on some linked page about policies.

The point is that, just like Lexmark and the toner cartridge case recently, if the manufacturer wants to enter into a contract for sale of any good, digital or not, it should be EXPRESS that you are agreeing to forgo implied warranty of title and give up your rights to resale and not simply "implied because software has determined its own thing forever and it's never been challenged in court and therefore pieces of software make the company immune to consumer protection laws".