Greece - A New Hope

Chris

Potato del Grande
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What planet are you on? Austerity is all the rage. Here in the UK the Conservative/Liberal Democrat coalition choked off our recovery by implementing austerity measures when it came to office in 2010. In 2015, the Conservatives, who were the driving force behind austerity actually got voted back into Goverment with a majority. Despite their austerity they won more seats than in 2010
They choked off nothing, they ensured confidence in that the UK will remain the most stable country in the world and will be able to deal with the debts.

For every champagne socialist/hipster fantasist getting upset about children in "poverty" and food banks, there are two of us actually living in the real world and seeing the reality on the ground. This explains the SJW vision for the UK not being voted for and their two parties dying. Uncontrolled benefits leads to lazy irresponsible people teaching their children that life is already pretty good and they don't need to better themselves. Outside of cases of genuine cases of neglect I've never come across a child in "poverty" who didn't have a smartphone, an xbox and an energy drink/chocolate bar breakfast.

Greece is the example we need to see to know that unlimited benefits destroys a country. I'm actually slightly better off under "austerity" since I'm working for a living and not relying on state handouts, that being said there is plenty to hate the tories for but the economy isn't one of them.
 

khalid

Unelected Mod
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The part where the people with the money got tired of throwing good money after bad. I guess.
Pretty much this. People aren't reluctant to bail out Greece because they are bad people, or want Greece to fail or want to force Greece to leave. They are reluctant because no one wants to lend money to a bad debtor unless you have ironclad assurances that they will pay it back or that someone will pay it back for them. I know I sure as fuck wouldn't be investing in Greece or lending them any of my money until they get their shit together. Electing a radical left-wing party didn't help matters.
 

Ossoi

Tranny Chaser
<Trapped in Randomonia>
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They choked off nothing, they ensured confidence in that the UK will remain the most stable country in the world and will be able to deal with the debts.

For every champagne socialist/hipster fantasist getting upset about children in "poverty" and food banks, there are two of us actually living in the real world and seeing the reality on the ground. This explains the SJW vision for the UK not being voted for and their two parties dying. Uncontrolled benefits leads to lazy irresponsible people teaching their children that life is already pretty good and they don't need to better themselves. Outside of cases of genuine cases of neglect I've never come across a child in "poverty" who didn't have a smartphone, an xbox and an energy drink/chocolate bar breakfast.

Greece is the example we need to see to know that unlimited benefits destroys a country. I'm actually slightly better off under "austerity" since I'm working for a living and not relying on state handouts, that being said there is plenty to hate the tories for but the economy isn't one of them.
lol you are terribly predictable, as soon as I saw your name as being the last to reply I instantly knew what kind of nonsense you'd be spouting

mainly macro: May 2015

The Conservative led government of 2010 to 2015 had a terrible macroeconomic record. Partly through their own actions they had presided over the worst recovery from a recession for hundreds of years, and an unprecedented fall in real wages. Employment had increased, but only because productivity had stagnated. Yet the Conservatives were seen by voters as the more competent political party when it came to running the economy, and this probably had a decisive role in winning them the election.[

This paradox is easily explained. Voters were sold a lie: that Labour through its profligacy had run up budget deficits that had required painful measures to correct, but that recent growth rates showed that these measures had been a success. And the lie worked.
 

khorum

Murder Apologist
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I really don't see what's so difficult to understand
Yeah, that's because you're hilariously trying to redpill the world on the virtues of socialism. Guess what sociopolitical features Venezuela, Cuba and Greece have in common---I mean aside from desperation, poverty and a prevailing need to blame the CIA for everything from crop failures to overpriced toilet paper?

There is little need to look for external causes for Greek dysfunction---it's not some vast bankster conspiracy---since the same mechanisms and pressures were applied to Ireland, Portugal and Spain. In fact the harshest austerity measures at the start of the 2008 recession weren't even imposed on Greece; that honor goes to Ireland. And yet todaythe Irish have one of the fastest growing economies in the EUand Spain has just reported its eighth consecutive quarter as the fastest growing of the big four.

Your BBC article apologizing for the Greek revenue clusterfuck even touches on this., even as it arrives at the exact same conclusion that everyone has been making about the Greek inability to run a government. Too bad it punts on the how the Greek tax-evaders (namely, everyone) absorb government spend and dodge every tax they can manage.

BBC_sl said:
There is also evidence to suggest that the Greeks aren't very good at collecting taxes even outside the shadow economy.

In 2011, an OECD survey ranked Greece as one of the worst rich countries in the world at collecting VAT receipts and social security payments. When the OECD had tried to do similar surveys between 2005 and 2009 they found that the data was simply "missing".

A study quoted by the IMF suggests that between 1999 and 2010 the shadow economy in Greece made up 27% of the country's GDP.
That article then fails to explain how theUniversity of Chicago paper explains how the widespread tax-evasionis actually performed by the Greeks: with the collusion of its state banks. Greek banks (under tacit approval of state banking authorities) turn a blind eye to WIDESPREAD tax evasion by everyday Greeks who routinely report themselves as self-employed and simultaneously perpetually in debt:

UC Berkeley_sl said:
banks lend to tax-evading individuals based on the bank's perception of the individual's true income. This observation leads to a novel approach to estimate tax evasion using the adaptation of the private sector to the norms of semiformality....We estimate a lower bound of 28.2 billion euros of unreported income for Greece.The foregone government revenues amount to 32% of the deficit for 2009.Primary tax-evading industries are medicine, law, engineering, education, and media.

We provide evidence that tax evasion persists not because the tax authorities are unaware, but because of a lack of paper trail and political willpower.
That paper was cited by the IMF in its last few reports and even by the BBC paper you linked. But how could the Greeks possibly be skipping out on almost 90% of their taxes?!?! The beeb just told me it's an accounting error and the beeb nevar lies.

Well yeah sure, it's definitely done by accounting errors alright. Systemic, state-wide accounting errors.

As the report explains, that's because the Greeks extend their "fakelaki" bribe culture into their banking system and underreport earnings. They file as self-employed (even state employees like doctors file as self-employed haha)and then file to be perennially in debt so they don't have to pay taxes. To date theGreeks have the most declared "self-employed" people in the EU; about a full third of the entire working population in Greececlaimsto be legally self-employed---that's almost 10% more than the next highest state which is Spain at 23%.

Economists use self-employment as a indicator for broad-based inefficiencies. But Greek self-employment is actually useful a tax-evasion ploy, because the GREEK BANKS ARE COMPLICIT in widespread underreporting of Greek income so the Greeks can claim to be fully submerged in credit service debt:

BI_sl said:
A number of banks in southern Europe told us point blank that they have adaptation formulas to adjust clients' reported income to the bank's best estimate of true income, and furthermore, that these adjustments are specific to occupations ... Take the examples of lawyers, doctors, financial services, and accountants. In all of these occupations, the self-employed are paying over 100% of their reported income flows to debt servicing on consumer loans

You read that right: More than 100% of the self-reported income of Greece's professional classes is going toward paying off consumer debts.Not, we suspect, because they have massive unbearable repayments to make, but because they're colossally underreporting their income.

About a third of Greeks are self-employed, nearly twice the European average and the highest rate in the EU.
Look at this shit:

greece tax avoid.png


By the Greek's own "fakelaki" income reporting system Doctors (most of whom are paid by the state) report to be paying 102% of their income to pay off credit card loans. Accountants (also mostly employed by the state or state banks) report being raped by their loans at the ratio of 115% of their income going to pay their loans. You're asking "WTF is Transport" and why are they paying 102% of their income to service their debt. Wellp, those are Taxi drivers, Ferry boat operators and folks in the metro transit unions---all of whom underreport their income to juuust below their current debt load so they skip out on tax deductions.

Most telling is the "Restaurant and Lodgings" line, that's TOURISM, Greece's largest industry and by far their largest group of self-employed individuals. So there we see Greece's last, best hope for an economic recovery and yet all those bed-and-breakfasts, beach guides, restaurateurs and hotelliers claim to be mom-and-pop operations and grossly underreport their income so as to appear 106% under debt to avoid paying taxes.

That's why any tax remedies on the Greeks have been sub-optimal until recently, they are institutionally andperhaps even culturallydisinclined to behave like a modern economy.
 

Furry

WoW Office
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khorum, I just dont understand how you can take the stance that everyone in greece lies about their income and that these stats on their income mean something at the exact same time. It's kinda a one or the other thing.
 

khalid

Unelected Mod
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khorum, I just dont understand how you can take the stance that everyone in greece lies about their income and that these stats on their income mean something at the exact same time. It's kinda a one or the other thing.
No it isn't. You can certainly look at people possibly lying about their income and then compare that to other countries and see how it compares. If the data from Greece is wildly far away from what is happening in other countries and also happens to not even pass the laugh test (on average, everyone self-employed in greece pays over 100% of their income into debt) then you can definitely make some conclusions.
 

Lendarios

Trump's Staff
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Disagree. Loans often do go to the people - indirectly - by being used to implement economic stimuli and turning things around. In Greeces case the loans have gone significantly on interest on debt and interest on interest on debt.
What happened to the first set of loans? Did they go to the people?
 

khorum

Murder Apologist
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The study cited by the IMF and even that BBC apologia explains that.

Basically the Greek banks have become complicit in allowing everyone to massively underreport their incomes to just below the point where their debt service loads overcome it. It's happening at flagrantly fraudulent levels where state-employed doctors and lawyers are underreporting their incomes where 102% to 115% of their income is going towards servicing their debt---allowing them to elude taxation.

It's across two of the largest industries in Greece too. Hotel and Lodgings and Retail (which comprise their tourism sector) shows widespread income underreporting for the purposes of tax evasion. Transport also covers their shipping industry, of which Greece is the world market leader employing 160,000 greeks, shows them grossly underreporting their incomes too.
 

Ossoi

Tranny Chaser
<Trapped in Randomonia>
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I just scroll past what khorum writes, which is hilarious as most of his rants are directed at me
 

khorum

Murder Apologist
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I just scroll past what khorum writes, which is hilarious as most of his rants are directed at me
LOL of course. What, did you run out of Guardian socialists using their column to ejaculate more feels about unemployed Greek hipsters?
 

Frenzied Wombat

Potato del Grande
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khorum, I just dont understand how you can take the stance that everyone in greece lies about their income and that these stats on their income mean something at the exact same time. It's kinda a one or the other thing.
Visit Greece and you'll understand. Not paying taxes-- whether it be income tax or sales tax, is literally a national sport. It's not only culturally accepted, it's the culturalnorm. Everything is haggling and cash sales. People can discuss advanced economic theory, post fancy graphs, debate austerity, etc-- but it doesn't matter. The entire culture is focused on working as little as possible while maximizing income through cheating. No external forces or economic manipulation will fix that. Corruption is the ultimate retrograde force against a successful economy. Nigeria should be fucking rich productive nation with all their oil, but it's a fucking utter shithole because it's corrupt through and through. Greece can only be fixed when it's citizenry gives up trying to cheat their way through the economic realities of life.
 

khorum

Murder Apologist
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I've never been there but that was true in my last job that involved Greece. We were managing the Athens subway project in preparation for their olympics and I was on the JiT procurement team and everything---I mean EVERYTHING---got shit on because the local Greek firms demanded cash every week for their subs. We had these university archeologists that like to halt all work whenever they saw ancient pottery and they demanded cash too. This wasn't something you'd even see in Nigeria or Sudan, we're talking state-owned subcontractors refusing direct deposit and stopping work unless there was cash on escrow. That wasn't even the worst hangup at the time so we agreed despite it being waaaay off scope.
 

Lithose

Buzzfeed Editor
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I just scroll past what khorum writes, which is hilarious as most of his rants are directed at me
Everyone is thinking this about your posts actually. He's right. It's a fucking nest of insular community corruption. I used to deal with a less severe kind all the time at the IRS, all small businesses do it that can take cash. Pizza (And really any take out place), Dog Grooming, Laundry, Barbers/Salons (Anything where the typical price per transaction is what people normally keep in their pocket.)...This kind of fraud is VERY difficult to prove if it is done within reason; because essentially the person has to be a moron and make deposits well out stripping their income or make large purchases that are easy to track--and most small business owners are smart enough to account for just enough to cover their mortgage/debts and other large purchases (The rest they take in cash for daily spending, food, small luxuries ect). Everyone KNOWS this happens in the U.S., but as long as you're not brazen with it, and keep your books in somewhat decent order, and (most importantly) don't try to defraud through deductions? It's just a fact of life.

In Greece, the difference is, this happens with every major business. I'll try to dig up the study one of the lenders did. But the rates of cash purchases are crazy, crazy high there; even business here that are usually strictly no cash operations? Are cash there. It's a society that is open and brazen about its corruption. Which is why I said a few pages ago--the only way to "fix" Greece, is actually let the Economic Gestapo come in and run the country outside of its own cultural influence...Literally having Germans do the tax collection and monitoring and having legal power to prosecute (And have the jurisdiction be a special zone with them)...

Essentially the only way Greece gets fixed while remaining in the Euro is to give up its sovereignty and literally be economically invaded and conquered by Germany. Which will, andshouldnever happen. Which is why even Germany, at this point, just wants them gone--because everyone, EVERYONE knows it is best for them in the long run.
 

Ossoi

Tranny Chaser
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Everyone is thinking this about your posts actually. He's right. It's a fucking nest of insular community corruption. .
It's not nearly as black and white as you guys think it is.

Do you honestly think that Greece is bankrupt because of tax avoidance and corruption? Or do you think there might be some other factors that have contributed?

And it's all very well saying "punish them, they're all corrupt and don't pay any tax" or "they spent too much" or "they borrowed too much" - until you realise that youth unemployment is 60%+ and that their only crime is reaching maturity just as the crisis exploded. How many 25 year olds were avoiding tax 10 years ago or borrowing money from French/German banks to buy BMWs and Mercedes?

But pointing this out makes me a red pill euro socialist leftie liberal rainbow fag fairy ban guns gay marriage guardian terrorist, at least according to Khorum. I guess it's the same mindset that makes stupid Americans label Obama a commie or a socialist, it's just pure nonsense and I can't be arsed to even read any his rants, especially when they start with gems such as these:

Yeah, that's because you're hilariously trying to redpill the world on the virtues of socialism.
Lemme guess, MURDOCH/FOXNEWS brainrape amirite? If only those brits just listened and believed to all the butthurtitude among the poors and the browns you'd be back to Labourtopia this very minute.
bawww umad? LMAO
<- honestly what?

Itz and the other eurosocialists
Are you sure it wasn't that British left has been so thoroughly overrun by Islamist sympathizers
Oh my bad, I guess all the ISIS sympathizing that's engulfed the British left is
It really is utter drivel and I think I'd rather go to the TV forum, take Astrocreep off ignore and spend the whole evening replying to every single one of his posts that I've been blocking for the past year.
 

Gavinmad

Mr. Poopybutthole
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It really is utter drivel and I think I'd rather go to the TV forum, take Astrocreep off ignore and spend the whole evening replying to every single one of his posts that I've been blocking for the past year.
The quality of the discussion in here would go up dramatically if you did, so by all means.
 

Flight

Molten Core Raider
1,229
285
They choked off nothing, they ensured confidence in that the UK will remain the most stable country in the world and will be able to deal with the debts.
Prime example of believing the propaganda spread by the ruling elites use of media.

Economists all over the world agree that Osbournes policies have slowed the recovery down not helped it.


On the other hand I agree that there are aspects of the profligate welfare system that need reforming - but this is not what the Tories are doing. They don't give a shit for 98% of the population but are using austerity as an excuse to further their ideology.

Nor do I believe in the Labour party who have become a joke.
 

Phelps McManus

<Silver Donator>
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A government uses money it receives to build hospitals, libraries, schools and pay welfare benefits to the unemployed, the sick and the elderly - is that not for the people?

When a Country is virtually bankrupt a la Greece and you offer Greece a bailout as long as it promises to implement austerity measures (cut pensions, cut wages, increase retirement ages, increase taxes, reduce spending by cutting services) - then most people would expect the money to stay in the Greek economy somehow - whether by keeping libraries open, or investing in infrastructure or anything else needed to make Greece not look like a third world Country - but instead most of the money flowed out to the foreign banks that gorged themselves on cheap PIIGS sovereign debt.
I think your are misunderstanding the timing of the loans and the bailout. Pre-crisis, the Greek government spent money they didn't have to provide welfare benefits and, presumably, the other nice things you mentioned. They borrowed that money and they immediately spent it. Years ago.

When their loans came due and they could not afford to pay them, a bailout was provided to stave off default. This money does indeed go to the creditors and not the govt (debtor). It is another loan with its own terms and stipulations meant to cover the previous loans, not new shit.