Greece - A New Hope
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If the Tories last the full five years of this Parliament I'll beverysurprised. They've got a tiny majority but are acting like they won by a landslide then are having to back-pedal when they do the maths re: actually counting the votes. Thereisgoing to be a no-confidence vote aimed at Cameron; it's just a matter of when.
khorum
Murder Apologist
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So did you toss a couple molotovs into some SNP campaign offices after that election or did you restrict yourself to beheading some jews after Galloway lost his seat?
I suppose it was a fair gamble that Americans didn't pay attention to how silly your first-past-the-post system shafted Labour, but believe me, some of us are still chuckling.
I suppose it was a fair gamble that Americans didn't pay attention to how silly your first-past-the-post system shafted Labour, but believe me, some of us are still chuckling.
Random musings on things to understand about Greeces debt :
1. The IMF absolutely precludes lending money unless systems are in place which it believes will cause economic growth and comfortable repayments. Yet it has known from the very beginning that Greece would be incapable of repayments.
2. The loans to Greece didn't go into the pockets of the Greeks it went to banks.
3. Greek debt as a percentage of turnover was falling at the time the loans were made in 2008.
4. The austerity measures forced on Greece by Germany et al have caused the Greek economy to fall by 25% in 5 years. Unemployment is now 25%
5. The loans made to Greece were never in their best interest but an attempt by Germany and France to prop up the EU, the Euro and the banking system.
The snowball of debt - which has largely gone on paying interest upon interest to banks - always was inescapable. It was not made by the Greek people but by the architects of the EU and the banking system.
1. The IMF absolutely precludes lending money unless systems are in place which it believes will cause economic growth and comfortable repayments. Yet it has known from the very beginning that Greece would be incapable of repayments.
2. The loans to Greece didn't go into the pockets of the Greeks it went to banks.
3. Greek debt as a percentage of turnover was falling at the time the loans were made in 2008.
4. The austerity measures forced on Greece by Germany et al have caused the Greek economy to fall by 25% in 5 years. Unemployment is now 25%
5. The loans made to Greece were never in their best interest but an attempt by Germany and France to prop up the EU, the Euro and the banking system.
The snowball of debt - which has largely gone on paying interest upon interest to banks - always was inescapable. It was not made by the Greek people but by the architects of the EU and the banking system.
khorum
Murder Apologist
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Aaaand the bankster-rapists somehow spared Spain, Portugal and Ireland that treatment somehow?
What witchcraft did the Spanish and Irish and Portuguese do to avoid having to pay those extortionate debt service and anarcho-rapist-capitalist interest costs then? Spanish unemployment remains high since they have another 18 months or so to return to pre-recession heights. Did they receive a different flavor of austerity than that applied to everyone in Europe in 2008-2009?:
We see everyone's economy taking a shit with the dysfunctional Greek economy performing at its usual place at the bottom of the pile, but what's that weird squiggle as the line nears 2013 and 2014? Did the Goldmans get distracted with raping someone else for a bit?
What witchcraft did the Spanish and Irish and Portuguese do to avoid having to pay those extortionate debt service and anarcho-rapist-capitalist interest costs then? Spanish unemployment remains high since they have another 18 months or so to return to pre-recession heights. Did they receive a different flavor of austerity than that applied to everyone in Europe in 2008-2009?:
We see everyone's economy taking a shit with the dysfunctional Greek economy performing at its usual place at the bottom of the pile, but what's that weird squiggle as the line nears 2013 and 2014? Did the Goldmans get distracted with raping someone else for a bit?
khorum
Murder Apologist
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Same macro forces that pummeled everyone in 08, but Greece and the other PIIGS had lavish welfare social services and dominant public sector unions that fought tooth and nail against every austerity measure. The Greeks should've been out of the recession before everyone else; you see that bump in 2009 where they were back up near Spain and Belgium for most the year. But their socialists and unions revolted, set Athens on fire and they got their cuts restored.
Most importantly the Greek government is just fundamentally, systemically undisciplined. The recent round of negotiations barely impose more taxes because the creditors knowthe Greeks are utter failures at performing that most basic function of government:
Just as the Greek socialist party PASOK had just managed to hit bottom and see a surplus late in 2014, the Greeks voted in the hardcore communist party Syriza in January.
Most importantly the Greek government is just fundamentally, systemically undisciplined. The recent round of negotiations barely impose more taxes because the creditors knowthe Greeks are utter failures at performing that most basic function of government:
That 76 billion euros in uncollected taxes is A THIRD of Greece's entire debt. Had they spent every dime of the last bailout just hiring tax ninjas, they would never have needed any bailouts ever again. But nope, actually Greece's inability to conduct a real economy is getting worse, not better.Wall Street Journal_sl said:
Just as the Greek socialist party PASOK had just managed to hit bottom and see a surplus late in 2014, the Greeks voted in the hardcore communist party Syriza in January.
Simple lesson, you cannot continue to spend twice as much as you make for decades and be financially stable. It still amazes me that there are still people who claim "OMG, if only they hadn't cut spending they would have been fine"! Uhhhh seriously?
Gavinmad
Mr. Poopybutthole
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I realize that Macroeconomics is probably over your head, but cutting government spending can be one of the quickest ways to send your economy into a nose dive. It's a lot more complicated than 'if we spend less money, we'll have more money!'.
Spending cuts have rather authoritatively been linked to economic downturn on multiple occasions.
Palum
what Suineg set it to
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Not to agree with Merlin but while that makes sense in most countries, what does the Greek government actually do? It doesn't appear from most reports that they spend it on anything but pensions and paying people off.
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a) You've clearly lost it on the last couple of pages, your inane rants have got worse
b) You do realise that the things that made Greece vulnerable in 2008-2009 aren't the things that made the rest of the PIIGS vulnerable, and that each Country/Economy is different?
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Lendarios
Trump's Staff
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Why do people keep saying that the 2008 bailout didn't go to the greek people, as it made any difference? Loans made to a government NEVER go to the people. Governments don't ask for loans from the IMF and proceed to hand them out to the population. If the government is wise, the loan money is invested, if it is not wise, then it is wasted. It is very simple.
The greek people are learning the hard way that you cant have a government without paying taxes.
And from the same article ossoi posted.
The greek people are learning the hard way that you cant have a government without paying taxes.
And from the same article ossoi posted.
In other words cry me a river Greece. Learn to collect taxes.
Disagree. Loans often do go to the people - indirectly - by being used to implement economic stimuli and turning things around. In Greeces case the loans have gone significantly on interest on debt and interest on interest on debt.
I want to be clear here that I am not making excuses for Greece, rather I think a lot of people don't understand what austerity is and what it means for the Western world. Greece is just the first and the tip of the iceberg.
From the following article, which is outstandingThe end of capitalism has begun | Books | The Guardian:
Even now many people fail to grasp the true meaning of the word "austerity". Austerity is not eight years of spending cuts, as in the UK, or even the social catastrophe inflicted on Greece. It means driving the wages, social wages and living standards in the west down for decades until they meet those of the middle class in China and India on the way up.
The issue is that neoliberalism, our banks and capitalism generally are based on ever increasing growth.The bottom line is that those systems and our society are unsustainable.
In the meantime what we have is the worlds richest people owning our media and our politics while inundating us constantly with propaganda on a larger scale than that in 1930s Germany.
The sad thing is that so many people are buying this propaganda. "It's the fault of that country, it's the fault of the welfare scroungers, the poor get what they deserve". The thing is that our economic policies dictate large scale unemployment to enable cheap wages and control of the workforce. Then these people are demonized.
"Get of your arse and get a job". The truth is that under our economic policies it is impossible for there to be enough jobs to go around.
The ruling elite have demonized and crushed the poor. Now it's the turn of the middle classes and most of them don't even see it coming - they're too busy being down on Greece and the poor.
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I don't think you have any idea how government spending works.
A government uses money it receives to build hospitals, libraries, schools and pay welfare benefits to the unemployed, the sick and the elderly - is that not for the people?
When a Country is virtually bankrupt a la Greece and you offer Greece a bailout as long as it promises to implement austerity measures (cut pensions, cut wages, increase retirement ages, increase taxes, reduce spending by cutting services) - then most people would expect the money to stay in the Greek economy somehow - whether by keeping libraries open, or investing in infrastructure or anything else needed to make Greece not look like a third world Country - but instead most of the money flowed out to the foreign banks that gorged themselves on cheap PIIGS sovereign debt.
I really don't see what's so difficult to understand
iannis
Musty Nester
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The part where the people with the money got tired of throwing good money after bad. I guess.
You want to forget that in this not only is the Greek getting dicked, so is the taxpayer.
The difference is that the Greek will probably starve to death. I guess they probably shouldn't have tried the "fuck off we don't need your money" negotiating tactic. You can only use that one successfully when it isn't a bluff, or when the opposition is weak.
As long as everyone is willing to blame someone besides the Greek governmental structure for what a mess Greece is, Greece will never recover. I don't think anyone is actually saying that the fault liesentirelywith the Greeks. It's impossible to deny that European banks leveraged their weakness against them. But that weakness was already there to be leveraged.
That's what bankers do. I dunno man. Create a federal entity and regulate them so this sort of irresponsible soft warfare doesn't become catastrophic. [salmon]That's what works for America.[/salmon]
You want to forget that in this not only is the Greek getting dicked, so is the taxpayer.
The difference is that the Greek will probably starve to death. I guess they probably shouldn't have tried the "fuck off we don't need your money" negotiating tactic. You can only use that one successfully when it isn't a bluff, or when the opposition is weak.
As long as everyone is willing to blame someone besides the Greek governmental structure for what a mess Greece is, Greece will never recover. I don't think anyone is actually saying that the fault liesentirelywith the Greeks. It's impossible to deny that European banks leveraged their weakness against them. But that weakness was already there to be leveraged.
That's what bankers do. I dunno man. Create a federal entity and regulate them so this sort of irresponsible soft warfare doesn't become catastrophic. [salmon]That's what works for America.[/salmon]
iannis
Musty Nester
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A confederation will prey on it's weakest members. That's what happened in both American Confederacies. And it happens in European Confederacies. They tend to only be as Good as the King that rules them.
The one thing Obama did which I respect very much, and was conflicted about at the time, was to bail out Michigan. And his simple reasoning in the face of a complex problem was impressive. He basically said, "This is what the Republic is for". And that was that. I think it really might have been his best act as President.
The one thing Obama did which I respect very much, and was conflicted about at the time, was to bail out Michigan. And his simple reasoning in the face of a complex problem was impressive. He basically said, "This is what the Republic is for". And that was that. I think it really might have been his best act as President.