Greece - A New Hope

It will be a hot night in Greece...

https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/621391998923218944

khorum_sl said:

We're already dealing with that. We've been dealing with that for years. Ever since the Pew project has been tracking it, consistently theGreeks are one of the most anti-American people in the world. They hate us more than the fucking PAKISTANIS do----and we have flying killer robots circling Pakistan's skies 24/7:

-snipped pic-

Pew has been tracking that trend since the 90's and the Greeks have hated America before and even after 9/11. "Khorum, what witchcraft is this," you ask. Well that's because Greece is also the most overtly socialist state in the EU and has been for generations. The ruling party that was deposed by Syriza was actually the real socialist party called PASOK, while "Syriza" itself is an acronym for "Coalition of the Radical Left" and is literally aragtag band of virulent marxist-leninists, anarcho-syndicalists and straight up Stalinists. They won by a landslide. The Greeks have harbored a resentment against American capitalist monoculture ever since the Gipper slipped their comintern brothers in the Soviet Union their darwin award...

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The Greeks have a couple of pretty good reasons not to like the USA:

- the 1946 - 1949 Greek civil war in which the USA sided with the Greek army, which was known to contain Nazi collaborators, against the partisans who had fought the Nazis. The partisans were largely Communist but they were not backed by Russia, as Stalin for once stuck to an agreement with Churchill about that.

- the 1967 coup which overthrew a NATO democracy and replaced it with a military dictatorship. There was mounting speculation that the election would see the first left-wing government in Greece since the second world war. Greece was seen as a vital NATO ally and there was (and still is) considerable belief that the USA backed the coup, but little hard evidence. For the next seven years thousands of Greeks were imprisoned and tortured by the military regime.

Oddly enough the right wing in Greece aren't keen on the USA either, because of Bosnia and Kosovo where the right-wing sympathised with the Serbs. It's quite an achievement to be so disliked by two sides who don't see eye to eye on much else.

Yeah we kinda spent the entire period between 1946 to 1992 tracking down communists to where they lived and killing them with their children. That "NATO Democracy" was actually a radical leftist coalition backed by the KKE, which remains influential in leftist Greece today, here they were during the last round of Athens-burning-riots:



Insofar as CIA involvement in that, sorry, that wasn't even close to a Mossadegh or Allende moment. If anything you can blame the Greek king for flipping out on his generals and turning it from a General's revolt to a "colonel's revolt" after he grossly misjudged their reaction. Unlike Ferdinand Marcos your king didn't even go to Hawaii for exile, last I checked he may even be back in Greece.

Yeah? Well, Onassis married that Kennedy widow. So there.

I expect Greeks dislike us for a few reasons. Tourism is probably the main one. They get our filthy tourists clogging up their towns every summer, and I would not blame them for resenting it. Shipping tensions are probably another -- I'm sure there are some dirty nasty dealings where Americans strong-arm the hell out of the Greeks, and greeks take that tradition pretty damn seriously. What wedon'tdo for them (basically... anything) is probably another. I doubt they have to go back to 1967 to find a reason to dislike us.

I do wonder what Ze Germans are going to do with them now that they own the joint.

Nothing.

Itz and the other eurosocialists around here are trying to push the narrative that "the world has had enough of austerity" or there's some "rift in the austerity front". But actually, the Germans overwhelmingly think Merkel and Schaeublearen't forceful ENOUGH regarding the Greeks:

The Telegraph_sl said:

The latest rescue package for Greece has sparked much outrage on behalf of the Greek people. "#Thisisacoup" according to many on Twitter; others are calling for a boycott of German goods.

Before Syriza came to power, the Germans were cautiously supportive of Greece, with a poll by the broadcaster ZDF finding that 55 per cent of them wanted it to remain part of the eurozone. However, as the debt crisis and bailout negotiations went on, German sympathy has waned, with ZDF's Political Barometer finding in June that a 51 per cent of Germans felt it was time for Greece to leave the eurozone.

Assuming Alexis Tsipras gets the proposed bailout past the Greek parliament today, Mrs Merkel will have to sell it to German MPs when it goes before the Bundestag on Friday. The German Chancellor will be in for a tough time, as she is seeking approval for a bailout package that Germans are far from enthusiastic about.

Perhaps the Greeks and their online sympathisers should be grateful it's German politicians who will decide on this deal, not their voters. Imagine what would happen if Mrs Merkel followed the Greek example and called a referendum of her own?

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And the Germans aren't even the harshest voices in this. The Finns, Lithuanians, Belgians and the Dutch were never satisfied with the shady shit that the EU had to pull to get Greece into the union anyway.

For the cold war thing? I meant we as in the West.

EDIT: No, I'm not Greek. I'm a god-fearing midwestern shitlord.

khorum_sl said:

Nothing.

Itz and the other eurosocialists around here are trying to push the narrative that "the world has had enough of austerity" or there's some "rift in the austerity front". But actually, the Germans overwhelmingly think Merkel and Schaeublearen't forceful ENOUGH regarding the Greeks:

And the Germans aren't even the harshest voices in this. The Finns, Lithuanians, Belgians and the Dutch were never satisfied with the shady shit that the EU had to pull to get Greece into the union anyway.

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Its because they dont want their taxes going to Greece. It has much less to do with an ideological commitment to austerity

So the prospect of a Germany full of frugal racists is less problematic than an EU led by a country full of ideologically-committed neoliberals?

Unfortunately the"Swabian Housewife"stereotype didn't emerge from a vacuum. And Germans aren't just ideologically committed to austerity, they'reculturallycommitted to austerity. Just as much of the northern European states are. While Greece fought to keep its retirement age as close to 58 to appease their unions, the Germans and the Baltic states have beenlinking the retirement age to growing life expectancybecause life expectancy is growing by 1 year every six years.

Can you imagine the riots if they tried to foist that on the Greeks? "Soon you'll have to retire at 72! Nazis!!!"

khorum_sl said:

So the prospect of a Germany full of frugal racists is less problematic than an EU led by a country full of ideologically-committed neoliberals?

Unfortunately the"Swabian Housewife"stereotype didn't emerge from a vacuum. And Germans aren't just ideologically committed to austerity, they'reculturallycommitted to austerity.

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yes, yes erst sparen, dann kaufen etc etc but what do you think your average Bild reader thinks when they see headlines about Greece getting more money:

a) Hey, that's my tax money
or
b) Giving money to the profligate Greeks is a complete betrayal of mine and my Countries ordoliberal roots and should not be tolerated.

Pull the other one mate.

Plus they were promised a new Euro currency with little to no devaluation by using the omni present printing press. Ofc none of the southern european countries, which used to devalue their former currencies to keep internationally competetive, had the balls of iron to restructure work force, pension and welfare status quo of their voters and kept thinking, that the germans etc will bail them out anyway.

Maybe Germany will just conquer Europe through economics this time.

Ossoi_sl said:

yes, yes erst sparen, dann kaufen etc etc but what do you think your average Bild reader thinks when they see headlines about Greece getting more money:

a) Hey, that's my tax money
or
b) Giving money to the profligate Greeks is a complete betrayal of mine and my Countries ordoliberal roots and should not be tolerated.

Pull the other one mate.

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It's probably both to be honest.

Zastlyn_sl said:

It's probably both to be honest.

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Don't you think it's a bit of a stretch to paint an entire nation with the stereotype of a fiscally prudent housewife?

Ossoi_sl said:

yes, yes erst sparen, dann kaufen etc etc but what do you think your average Bild reader thinks when they see headlines about Greece getting more money:

a) Hey, that's my tax money
or
b) Giving money to the profligate Greeks is a complete betrayal of mine and my Countries ordoliberal roots and should not be tolerated.

Pull the other one mate.

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LOL OK so let's get this straight. I gave you the metrics by which Germans, Scandinavians and the other Baltic "Austericrats" arefunctionally, culturally, and institutionally committed to austerityand yet you persist that they're angry at sending more money to the Greeks because it's what? Frugal racism?

Pull your other one? Dude, I get that you think I'm trolling you, but I dunno man, I can't really make that shit up. There's literally no basis for your argument because not only have the Germans been generous to the Greeks----they've been THE LARGEST CONTRIBUTOR to the Greeks to date. So while they've obviously been anxious about their "tax money", it hasn't kept them from shovelling hard-earned German money into the bottomless pit of socialism on the Mediterranean:



Why would you even believe otherwise? Noone here has ever attempted to explain why the Greeks refuse to behave like any of the other Euro countries, so it's not like the Germans are alone in feeling that way anyway. Are there any other EU states with uncollected tax rates close to 70%? Are there any other states that have an estimated8%to10%of their GDP lost to corruption?

Every response from the anti-austerity crowd is an appeal-to-feels; coded as "Solidarity" or "Community". But now you'd rather we keep believing that it's simply German GREED---or, what? Racism?---that makes Baltic and German voters so outraged at sending the Greeks more money to burn.

khorum_sl said:

LOL OK so let's get this straight. I gave you the metrics by which Germans, Scandinavians and the other Baltic "Austericrats" arefunctionally, culturally, and institutionally committed to austerity

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You don't need to lecture me about the historical and modern day commitment of Germany to austerity and ordoliberalism.

khorum_sl said:

and yet you persist that they're angry at sending more money to the Greeks because it's what? Frugal racism?

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Where did I mention racism?

khorum_sl said:

There's literally no basis for your argument because not only have the Germans been generous to the Greeks----they've been THE LARGEST CONTRIBUTOR to the Greeks to date. So while they've obviously been anxious about their "tax money", it hasn't kept them from shovelling hard-earned German money into the bottomless pit of socialism on the Mediterranean:

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Wait, who was responsible for giving money to the greeks? The German people or the German government? Did every city, town and village arrange to collect the bailout from its residents? Or did Merkel/Schauble decide how much tax revenue could go towards the bailout.

I never once denied that Germany historically is ideologically aligned with austerity, and I never once denied the stereotype exists.

My argument was that tabloid images and headlines such as these, are far more effective at stimulating anger in the German population than a cultural stereotype

khorum_sl said:

But now you'd rather we keep believing that it's simply German GREED---or, what? Racism?---that makes Baltic and German voters so outraged at sending the Greeks more money to burn.

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No idiot, I never once mentioned racism. Nobody likes to feel as if they are paying to support someone else unnecessarily. That's why in the UK the Conservatives were able to gain a majority by promising to be tough on people on welfare/benefits and get them back into work - never mind that the number of people using food banks and living in poverty has increased in the first 5 years of austerity - the promise of more cuts helped them get a majority. It's the same with US attitudes to a social healthcare system. And newsflash, it's exactly the same in Germany, they don't want their taxes funding Greece. This whole "we are German, we are sensible with our cash, we save first then spend and we love austerity" is further down the scale.

Wait, what? Are you honestly saying that "fuck austerity!" is a eurosocialist thing? It has been the cool thing to do in both the EU and the US for a looooooong time.

bawww umad? LMAO so if it's not some sense of cultural superiority, and it's obvious that the German and Baltic peoples areeven less inclinedto support Greek incompetence than their elected Governments, your argument is that they're ignorant clods gulled by TABLOIDS into heartlessness now? Some Aryan Murdoch/Koch Brothers media psyops is responsible for the Greek economic crisis? If it's not some ethno-cultural racist economic metric that shows how the Northern European economies boast a savings rate that's amongst the highest in the world and yet despite that all that they're STILL the most generous lenders to the perennially bankrupt Greeks? It must be because they're alll so easily swayed by some version of Europe's FOX NEWS.

If it wasn't for nefariousReichspropagandaoutlets like thesespreading lies about how the REAL Swabian Housewives actually put 10% more of their income towards savings than the rest of the EU and invest for their retirement almost a full decade younger, the Germans would be more inclined to give more money to their Greek comrades toiling under the capitalist yoke:

The Guardian_sl said:

The Swabian saying Schaffe, schaffe, H?usle baue - which translates as "work and work to build a house" - also dates back to that time. "You feel guilty when you're not working," says Sickinger. Swabians typically buy or build their own homes in their late 20s to early 30s, and they also start saving for retirement from a young age.

Mortgages are traditionally provided by building societies in Germany and the rule of thumb has been for people to save a third of the purchase price and to borrow at fixed mortgages for up to 25 years. Unlike in the UK, where people usually upgrade to bigger homes as soon as they can afford to, a house is bought or built for life.

German families are squirrelling away almost twice as much as UK households, according to a Lloyds TSB report this year. The typical German household has ?8,609 in savings and investments, against ?5,009 in the UK.

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I bet those nazi FOXNEWS tabloids also doctored the numbers that show that despite being the most frugal nations in the EU, they've also somehow magically ended up being the largest contributor to the Greek bailouts. Makes sense.

And surprise, surprise what argument do you provide to bolster this assessment? Do we get some growing evidence that widespread right-wing brainwashing is responsible for the German electorate being even more aggressively anti-bailout than Merkel and Schaeuble? It couldn't possibly be another APPEAL-TO-FEELS about poor, underprivileged, misunderstood Greeks suffering conservative jew-banker conspiracies and... ah goddammit:

Ossoi_sl said:

That's why in the UK the Conservatives were able to gain a majority by promising to be tough on people on welfare/benefits and get them back into work - never mind that the number of people using food banks and living in poverty has increased in the first 5 years of austerity - the promise of more cuts helped them get a majority. It's the same with US attitudes to a social healthcare system.

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Of course! It's yet another case of not FEELING enough. Not LISTENING enough. Anyone who doesn't just BELIEVE but instead ask why those people are lining up to withdraw sixty bucks a day or picking food out of bins are part of the problem!

We're just all too heartless and unsympathetic to the plight of people who riot and burn down their own cities every time someone suggests borrowing more money to supporta government that loses 10% of its NATIONAL INCOME to corruptionprobably shouldn't be trusted with a welfare system that's already the most bloated and expensive in the region.

Zero Hedge_sl said:

Greece Runs Out Of Ink, Can't Print Tax Forms
In an FT article describing the new set of austerity measures most of which are very loud threats that Greece will very soon (really) take austerity seriously (they promise), we stumble across the following gem: "The conservative opposition New Democracy party said a shortage of ink had prevented the computerised tax centre at the finance ministry from sending out claims to taxpayers over the last 10 days.

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It's some vast conservative mind-control that persuaded all those Baltic states to clamp their pursestrings shut, not the fact that if the Greeks had the barest notion of how toconduct a modern state, they couldcollect taxes at the rate that even Zambia can manageand erase a third of their debt instantly.

Is that about right?

Faith_sl said:

Wait, what? Are you honestly saying that "fuck austerity!" is a eurosocialist thing? It has been the cool thing to do in both the EU and the US for a looooooong time.

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What planet are you on? Austerity is all the rage. Here in the UK the Conservative/Liberal Democrat coalition choked off our recovery by implementing austerity measures when it came to office in 2010. In 2015, the Conservatives, who were the driving force behind austerity actually got voted back into Goverment with a majority. Despite their austerity they won more seats than in 2010