Gun control

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
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US History textbook guts the second Amendment under the guises of "summary" of Amendments.

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What a bunch of bullshit. What gun control faggot wrote that?
 

BrutulTM

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There's no doubt that having a gun increases your killing power very significantly vs. a knife. It's just an obvious fact and it doesn't really help your cause to make the "knives are just as bad!" argument.

I find it interesting that the US has more per capita knife murders than the UK even though we have easy access to firearms. It illustrates the fallacy of the argument that the UK has less murders than the US so obviously gun control is the difference.
 

fanaskin

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From what i've read overall per capita uk has more murders, closer to double the US. that's with taking into account the apples to oranges differences between us/uk police reporting which makes it seem even higher than that.
 

Eomer

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From what i've read overall per capita uk has more murders, closer to double the US. that's with taking into account the apples to oranges differences between us/uk police reporting which makes it seem even higher than that.
From what I've read, you're a fucking moron. Jesus christ, really? You really think that? When there's hard statistical evidence all over the place that the US has somewhere around 3-4 times as many murders as the UK? The US has a homicide rate of somewhere around 4-5/100,000, give or take. Most of Western Europe sits around 1-1.5/100,000.

List of countries by intentional homicide rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But please, don't let facts get in the way of your beliefs.
 

Eomer

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Don't give him an out. Per capita murder rates are a pretty specific thing. He thinks that the UK has a much higher murder rate than the US, which is diametrically opposed to reality. How much do you want to bet that like every other piece of evidence that contradicts his retarded worldview, he simply ignores it?
 

BrutulTM

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I read something else that said that murders in the UK are based on convictions rather than reports, so if no one is convicted of a murder, it's not counted.
 

Eomer

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I read something else that said that murders in the UK are based on convictions rather than reports, so if no one is convicted of a murder, it's not counted.
That would be an idiotic way to count murders, and I sincerely doubt that every Western European country uses it while only the US is "honest" about it's murder rate. Listen, this whole "UK is two or four times more violent than the US" meme has been going around for year's now, and it's based on complete and utter bullshit statistics that libertards cling to in order to validate their world view. It's simply not true.

Fact-Checking Ben Swann: Is the UK really 5 times more violent than the US? | The Skeptical Libertarian Blog

As far as murder statistics go, I'm sure that the UN didn't notice that it was comparing totally incomparable statistics when it compiled it's homicide report:UNODC homicide statistics
 

BrutulTM

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Nobody said anything about the rest of Europe. Also, there's no controversy about the fact that the UK is among the most violent countries in Europe despite having the strictest gun control laws. The point is that trying to correlate something as complex as crime or murder rates to a single factor like gun control laws is stupid.
 

Eomer

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BrutulTM_sl said:
Nobody said anything about the rest of Europe.
The rest of Europe all have very similar murder rates as compared to the UK, although the UK is slightly higher. So it stands to reason that if the UK is cooking the books to get it's rate so low, the rest of the continent would have to as well, given the cultural/societal/economic similarities.

BrutulTM_sl said:
Also, there's no controversy about the fact that the UK is among the most violent countries in Europe despite having the strictest gun control laws. The point is that trying to correlate something as complex as crime or murder rates to a single factor like gun control laws is stupid.
No, the point in this specific and most recent discussion is that facts matter. fanaskin said something that is so utterly and completely wrong that he should be embarrassed that it even left his lips. And he will continue to believe it, despite all evidence to the contrary. Which is both sad and infuriating. How can you even have an honest discussion with someone who is so utterly and completely disconnected from reality.

But while we are on the topic, what is your source for the UK having the strictest gun control laws in Europe? I'm not necessarily calling that claim in to question, I'm actually genuinely curious if that's the case. It's not exactly easy to get a gun anywhere in Europe.
 

fanaskin

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from the thing you cited as evidence

Due to fundamental differences in how crime is recorded and categorized, it's impossible to compute exactly what the British violent crime rate would be if it were calculated the way the FBI does it, but if we must compare the two, my best estimate? would be something like 776 violent crimes per 100,000 people. this is still substantially higher than the rate in the United States,
 

Eomer

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FROM THE THING YOU JUST CHERRY PICKED

Update #5 (1/16): In his correction to his earlier report, Ben Swann quoted this article extensively, including my estimate of 776 violent crimes per capita for England and Wales. It should be noted, however, that this is the highest estimate I calculated, although the one I cited in the initial post. I suspect it is an overestimation,and the true figure is likely to be closer to the low-end estimate of 271.My point was not that my number was exactly right, only that the differing definitions meant the comparison Swann made greatly exaggerated violence in the UK . I made a rough estimate purely to demonstrate just how large a difference it made, not because I believed it was an exact figure.
You really are retarded, aren't you? Not to mention that that particular factoid is discussing "violent crime" in general. Not homicide in particular, which is what you initially claimed was double in the UK as compared to the US.

fanaskin_sl said:
From what i've read overall per capita uk has more murders, closer to double the US.
So tell me garglechimp, do you still believe that the UK has a homicide rate double that of the UK? Or does the US in fact have a homicide rate that is 4 times higher than the UK, as every honest statistic would indicate?
 

BrutulTM

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The rest of Europe all have very similar murder rates as compared to the UK, although the UK is slightly higher. So it stands to reason that if the UK is cooking the books to get it's rate so low, the rest of the continent would have to as well, given the cultural/societal/economic similarities.
It does not stand to reason at all, it is a gross generalization.

But while we are on the topic, what is your source for the UK having the strictest gun control laws in Europe? I'm not necessarily calling that claim in to question, I'm actually genuinely curious if that's the case. It's not exactly easy to get a gun anywhere in Europe.
I should have said that the UK has the among the lowest rate of per capita legal gun ownership rather than strictest gun control laws since "strictness" of gun laws isn't that easy to quantify. I posted a chart earlier in the thread that shows the correlation (or lack thereof) of gun ownership to murder rates. I don't recall the source but it was cited in my previous post.
 

Eomer

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It does not stand to reason at all, it is a gross generalization.
That's fair. So Europe aside, do you stand by your claim that the UK does not count homicides based on reports, but only convictions? Do you feel that the OECD and UN compiled statistics on homicide are inaccurate? Do you honestly believe that the US does NOT in fact have a homicide rate approximately triple or quadruple that of the UK?
 

Frenzied Wombat

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You're right, making a direct correlation between murder/violent crime based solely upon gun laws is myopic. I would argue that if Canada, Australia, the UK, Germany, etc greatly relaxed their gun laws you would see an incremental rise in violent crime and murder, but certainly not anywhere on the level that you see in the USA. If guns represent a can of gasoline, harmless on its own, then the almost total lack of social infrastructure in the US represents the lit match. Unemployment insurance, welfare, health care, child care, education, sex education, "right to work" states, abortion rights, drug laws, and the US prison system all represent an egregious lack of safety net for the "unfortunate", whereas the aforementioned countries invest heavily in these social systems. No matter what their life circumstances may be they've always got the base necessities-- quality education for their kids and health care for the family. Should you lose your job, your unemployment insurance isn't a total joke, and if you get arrested for drugs, the focus is on rehab and not incarceration. If you are a 15 year old girl, you can get BC pills on your own, and if you get knocked up, you don't have to worry about having to cross a human chain to get into the abortion clinic. So why does this all matter? Well, for one not having access to basic necessities makes one desperate, and the lack of education and the prison system seals the casket by providing no "out" to ones lowly existence.

A good example was a guy who lived a few apartments down from me when I lived in Canada. He was your quintessential lazy deadbeat and had admittedly never held a job for more than a year. He had been on welfare for 5 years and did the occasional odd job painting fences/garages to make extra under the table cash, but basically did nothing all day but drink beer and hang out in his studio apartment watching TV. He made enough money each month to pay the rent, cable, some beer/food, and pay for clothes at the Salvation Army. He had a kid and a poor ex-wife which of course he could contribute nothing to financially, yet his kid still got to go to a good school and have his healthcare/dentist fully covered. The guy literally didn't even WANT a job, he was perfectly happy living out his meager existence as it was. He had a place to sleep, had his TV, and had his cholesterol meds paid for by the govt. At the time I hated this man, because every time I came home from a hard day's work he was drinking a Sleeman's Lager on his balcony, and I would think how my tax dollars were floating a lazy asshole like this. Basically, this guy was a sterling example of Republican worries/mantras of "socialism", "not on my money", and "get out and work". BTW, his son despite having poor parents and being an average student, was still able to make something of himself and attend university, as the position he was born into had no bearing on his financial ability to gain an education.

Now, what if the person above lived in the US? It's no longer a question of "well I'm given enough to afford shit food and a place to sleep", but "I have now hit rock bottom- I literally have nothing to lose and am entirely despondent and desperate; knocking over that liquor store is starting to look like my only way out".

I remember after I first moved to the US one of my buddies asked me what it was like, and I responded: "It's like the wild west-- every man for himself. Let the strong survive and the weak die. Attitude seems to be as long as I live behind my safe golden gated community, I don't really give a shit what happens to others. From sub-prime mortgages preying on the dumb and ambulance chasers advertising on billboards-- it just seems so "caveat emptor" compared to home." But you know what, initially I LOVED that philosophy. No longer did I have to pay for that deadbeat neighbor with my tax money, now in my new home he can either get off his ass and work, or starve..

But as time went on, I began to realize that there is A LOT more to it then work ethic and tax money well spent. I saw outdated public schools that look more like prisons than places of education, "poor-ish" areas that exuded more rot and crime than even the worst neighborhood back home. The amount of "poor white trash" and the generally uneducated compared to back home was also staggering. Let's throw in a teen pregnancy epidemic and a shit backwards drug policy that incarcerates simple users and you've created not only the ideal environment for crime, but a merry-go round prison system that ensures that if you weren't a hardened criminal going in, you certainly will be one on your way out.

Guns are 50% of the US's problem, the other 50% is a failed social policy. Now there is NO doubt that if all handguns and semi-automatic weapons went *poof* overnight in the US that there would be a reduction in violent crime-- this is irrefutable. However, the amount of incremental crime as a result of just the "gun" being considered a factor pales in comparison to the synergistic effect that occurs when you place them into the hands of millions of poor, uneducated, despondent, disenfranchised US citizens.

Yeah, you could solve a lot of the problem by removing all firearms, but not only is that unrealistic at this point, but society would benefit far more from correcting a failed social policy that would not only impact violent gun crime, but myriad other issues as well.