Gun control

Hoss

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Backing up the the Class 3 license for a sec. IIIC, in Texas along with getting the ATF to sign off on your application, which includes a whole gambit of stuff from finger prints, proving that you can keep your weapon safely stored and among other things, paying like $500 for a tax stamp, you have to also get your Chief Law Enforcement Officer to sign off on the weapon to allow it in their city or county. GL with that.
Actually spoke to a sheriff about that not too long ago. He has no problem signing off. Maybe you're just talking about people who live in big cities where the police aren't directly responsible to the citizens.
 

BrutulTM

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That study doesn't show that more guns= less crime, it shows exactly what I stated-- weak social policy combined with easy access to guns= more deaths. No shit Russia and Belarus have high murder rates despite having banned firearms. The place is massively corrupt and has almost as much of a "have and have nots" rift as the US does.
When the UK banned guns, their crime rates skyrocketed. During the same period, gun ownership increased drastically in the US over the same period that the economy went in the toilet and remained there for a decade, economic inequality increased astronomically, and violent crime rates plummeted to basically an all-time low in the history of the country. I would like to see you explain this in light of your theory that you pulled out of your ass based on nothing.

P.S: I would feel infinitely more comfortable walking the streets of London at 3am vs any American city I've visited save maybe Portland and Burlington..
Since you probably have little to no experience doing either, I doubt that your opinion on this is particularly relevant.
 

Eomer

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BrutulTM_sl said:
When the UK banned guns, their crime rates skyrocketed. During the same period, gun ownership increased drastically in the US over the same period that the economy went in the toilet and remained there for a decade, economic inequality increased astronomically, and violent crime rates plummeted to basically an all-time low in the history of the country. I would like to see you explain this in light of your theory that you pulled out of your ass based on nothing.
Which "ban" are you talking about specifically? The biggest gun control change in the UK in the past 20+ years was in 1997 after the Dunblane incident, and near as I can tell, crime continued to drop after that:

Violent-crime-rates-UK-1981-to-2007.png


I'm not claiming that the legislation caused crime to drop. Crime was dropping everywhere in the developed world at that time, it just happened to coincide with that legislation. What is your source for claiming that crime "skyrocketed" after the UK "banned guns"?
 

BrutulTM

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And since you're making me go googling again, here's the chart I referred to earlier showing gun ownership vs. homicides. I find it interesting that the US's non-gun homicides are higher than almost any country in Europe and in most cases higher than gun and non-gun combined despite the fact that anyone can get a gun in the US easily.

gc5.png
 

BrutulTM

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Eomer, I think that chart might be a mislabeled US graph. It matches our rates pretty well.
 

Eomer

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Eomer, I think that chart might be a mislabeled US graph. It matches our rates pretty well.
It was from that UK violent crime debunking article I linked a page or two back. Strange that things don't match up.

And yes, the lead hypothesis is fairly interesting, but hasn't really been shown to be causal as yet. The Economist had an interesting briefing on crime rates overall, and the long and short of it is that the fall in crime over the past 20 years is probably down to a bunch of different factors:

Crime: The curious case of the fall in crime | The Economist

Falling crime: Where have all the burglars gone? | The Economist

Predictive policing: Don't even think about it | The Economist
 

Hoss

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Where did that graph come from? It doesn't square with any that I have found.
Looks like Eomers chart is showing rate per 10,000, and your chart is showing raw numbers. Maybe crime went up, but not as much as the population. Also, don't forget that the home office was caught lying about their crime rates a while back. Can't remember when that was, I think it was at least a decade ago, but there's always a possibility that one of the charts was made with the falsified data.
 

BrutulTM

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the fall in crime over the past 20 years is probably down to a bunch of different factors:
Of course it is, and to be clear, I'm not trying to suggest that the UK gun ban caused crime to go up or that increased gun ownership caused crime to drop in the US. It is a complex issue and trying to tie it to a single factor is just plain dumb. That said, none of the statistics I have seen are a very effective commercial for gun control. I am against gun control because like the vast majority of gun owners, I like to use firearms in completely harmless ways and I think that for some people they are important for safety or at least peace of mind and because I think that they serve as a check on the government as well. If I knew that crime could be reduced by banning guns I would still weigh it against those factors, but the conclusion that I keep coming to is that banning guns would not be particularly likely to achieve it's desired effect and all of the negative aspects of losing the right to keep and bear arms would be for little or no benefit.
 

BrutulTM

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Looks like Eomers chart is showing rate per 10,000, and your chart is showing raw numbers. Maybe crime went up, but not as much as the population. Also, don't forget that the home office was caught lying about their crime rates a while back. Can't remember when that was, I think it was at least a decade ago, but there's always a possibility that one of the charts was made with the falsified data.
Statistics are definitely a great way to lie to people. I have googled this many times in recent years though and found plenty of graphs that look like mine but never seen one that looks like his.
 

BrutulTM

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We are still waiting on that reason.

Just saying there is a reason for it, does not make the reason valid.
I don't know if you have some kind of sick burn chambered, but the reason is obvious. A 95 lb woman that gets attacked by Brock Lesnar has zero chance of defending herself unless she has a gun.
 

Frenzied Wombat

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When the UK banned guns, their crime rates skyrocketed. During the same period, gun ownership increased drastically in the US over the same period that the economy went in the toilet and remained there for a decade, economic inequality increased astronomically, and violent crime rates plummeted to basically an all-time low in the history of the country. I would like to see you explain this in light of your theory that you pulled out of your ass based on nothing.
This has actually been studied at length.

1) An economic downturn takes years before its effects are shown in the form of crime--there isn't immediate cause and effect. A law abiding citizen that loses his job doesn't go out and knock over a liquor store the next day, it takes months if not years of hopelessness and despondency before he/she resorts to that. Hence the reason that higher crime statistics are just NOW appearing. This delayed effect, where the stats only appear years later, is further reinforced by young men/boys who are born into a depressed economic climate, and are raised without proper education and socialization.

2) The criminogenic effects of the economy and unemployment do not have a major effect on violent crime until it reaches approximately 15-20%. Comparing even the financial crisis of 2008 to the socio-economic condition of Russia is like comparing Bel-Air to Compton. Shit may have been bad in the US, but it's been shitty in Russia for decades.

3) In 2009, arrests of blacks for murder dropped 2.7%, robbery 2.1%, and drug offenses 3.3%. This also happened to be around the time Obama took office. Though I personally don't buy it completely, criminologists think Obama being elected actually had a pacifying effect on the black population. Three of the biggest African American cities (Atlanta, Birmingham, and DC) all had their murder rates drop by 20% in 2009.

There are many other sociological theories made by criminologists, but these are regarded as the most plausible.

Anyways, the point I was trying to make out to Fanaskin in response to the Harvard study is that making a correlelation between violent crime and gun laws without taking account literally dozens of possible social, political, and demographical influences is horribly flawed. Comparing Poland and Russia, Luxembourg to Germany, or the US to any other nation soly based on 2 variables (guns and ban/no ban) violates basic scientific method.

BrutulTM_sl said:
Since you probably have little to no experience doing either, I doubt that your opinion on this is particularly relevant.
Jimmies rustled much? Did I say I want your precious guns taken away and didn't realize it or something? It would be utterly futile to prove that I have been to such far off and exotic locations like London or Burlington, so you win lol. I've actually never left Dallas and live in a trailer park with my grandma. Better?
 

opiate82

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We are still waiting on that reason.

Just saying there is a reason for it, does not make the reason valid.
I'm not sure what you are not understanding, but the saying comes from the fact that firearms allow otherwise less strong and more vulnerable people to more easily defend themselves against more physically dominating foes who wish to do them harm. Specifically I would point to women being able to more easily defend themselves against potential rape with a gun.

Take rape, a crime usually involving a stronger person attacking a weaker person. Typically, the rapist gets the upper hand in a battle of fisticuffs. This is one of the reasons women are often cautioned to act passively when attacked by a rapist.

When you look at the various types of active resistance (yelling, physical force, etc.), fighting back can be more dangerous than passive behavior. But with active resistance that actually shrinks the strength gap ? removing the power monopoly from the attacker ? the dynamics change dramatically.

Whereas a woman may be severely beaten, even killed, if she resists by using her fists ? where the man likely has her outmatched ? says Lott, ?by far the safest course of action is to have a gun. A woman who behaves passively is 2.5 times as likely to end up being seriously injured as a woman who has a gun.?

Who knew Sam Colt was a feminist?

Criminologist Gary Kleck agrees with Lott, noting that firearms benefit women because ?guns are the weapon type whose effectiveness is least dependent on the physical strength of its user.?
Read more atGuns: The great equalizer
Also "The old saying goes that God made men, but Sam Colt made them equal." It isn't some saying I made up, it has been around a long time.
 

BrutulTM

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Jimmies rustled much? Did I say I want your precious guns taken away and didn't realize it or something? It would be utterly futile to prove that I have been to such far off and exotic locations like London or Burlington, so you win lol. I've actually never left Dallas and live in a trailer park with my grandma. Better?
So you went to London on vacation and didn't get mugged, therefore London is safe right? And how many times a week do you usually get mugged when you vacation in an American city? Like I said, your feelings are meaningless on the topic.
 

Muurloen

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@Frenzied Rodent

Did you watch that gun is evil myth video that I posted on the last page?
 

Jais

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Guys...you're arguing against a dude who was moved by whale noises. Movie Thread, Blackfish.
 

khalid

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Animals often cry in distress. If this doesn't move you, perhaps you are the one with the problem.