Gun control

chaos

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Thanks for the video Soy, that's the exact same suppressor, even the same color, of the one I'm putting on my SigP220 Combat.

Zodiac's take is realistic. There's nothing inherently wrong with a suppressor and given favorable conditions, could really steer the market towards some neat new technology. I personally see it as wishful thinking, but it's a valid take nonetheless.

Is it that you guys want to legislate your fears away through inane law or are you so shocked that man creates wondrous toys to kill one another?
There's nothing inherently wrong with anything. So what? That isn't now and has never been the litmus test used to gauge whether the government should control an item.
 

Tummysticks

Lord Nagafen Raider
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I found this editorial in the members-only portion of a website I frequent. I'm not going to spoil the message with any additional commentary of my own, but the most important part is below. The complete text of the article is spoilered.

The real ?First Responder? is YOU. YOU are the one who will always be first on scene when the danger comes. YOU are the one who must be the first to respond to danger. YOU are the one who will keep you alive for the three or four minutes that it takes for the police to get there. YOU are the one who needs to be suitably trained and armed to save yourself and the ones you love.
Friday, the 14th of December 2012 was an emotional day, and even now, more than a month later, my mind and heart still haven?t completely settled down.

That morning, I had flipped on the news in my hotel room so I could catch the headlines while I stretched for a run. I was greeted by the news of the shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut.

Evil walks the Earth
A 20-year-old whack job killed his mother, then went on to kill 26 people at an Elementary School, including 20 children. Twenty first graders, to be specific. A whole classroom of them. Twenty children around the age of six or seven years old.

We?ve seen the likes of this before, but this one hit me in a very unexpected way. I felt a deeply emotional response to this shooting that I hadn?t felt in the wake of the others.

I have always been outraged at incidents like this, but on this one I was deeply, personally, saddened and disturbed. It brought me to tears, and filled me with sorrow and rage like that I felt in the aftermath of the 9/11 attacks.

I don?t know why this one hurt so much, why it was so personal. Maybe it was seeing the faces of the parents who were pleading to know if their child was OK, and thinking what it would be like if I was in their place.

Maybe it was the thought that this could have been my wife?s classroom. Maybe it was the thought of the terror and confusion that a six-year-old child must feel when everyone around him is being executed. I don?t know, but it hurts. I?m getting teary again as I write this.

I had to turn it off. I went for my run, but my mind stayed locked on a kindergarten classroom on the other side of the nation, and the horrors yet to be discovered and experienced there.

When I got back, I turned the TV back on to get an update, like a moth drawn too close to the light. Things were still confused at this early stage and the information was unreliable, but there was no doubt that this was an atrocity that would affect many.

I felt a peculiar sense of rage when I saw the images of armed police officers in ballistic vests and helmets scurrying around the scene, searching for unknown hostiles. Please understand, I wasn?t mad at them.

They were doing what they always do: bravely and professionally responding to a fast breaking, violent situation to secure the scene. Instead, I was enraged with the futility of it all.

The shooter ? and his victims ? were dead before they ever got there. Fierce looking men with rifles and armor often seem to show up after it?s over. They bark orders and run around in circles, because that?s all there is left to do when the killing has already stopped.

It?s not their fault. I know they rushed to the scene as fast as they could, arriving within minutes of the call. I know they did everything they could to save and protect lives when they got there. I know they would have given anything to have been there when it all started, so they could have stopped it.

But it doesn?t matter. They were too late.

When Evil Comes to Call
What infuriates me is that this ?idyllic little community in Connecticut? ? as the idiotic news anchor called it ? was a guilty participant in the hoax. They told themselves that the police could protect them, that they could get there fast enough when evil came to call.

They told themselves that an electric door lock could keep evil out. They told themselves that the school was safe, that their children were safe, because there was a ?No Guns? sign posted on the entrance, which would certainly be obeyed by all.

And it was all bullshit. And their children died a horrible, terrifying death as a result.

These adults couldn?t bring themselves to face the inconvenient and frightening truth that the police, despite all their skills, commitment, and good intentions, cannot be there when it matters.

They couldn?t bring themselves to face the fact that when Evil shows up, you?re going to be on your own, and if you can?t defend yourself, you?re going to get hurt, or you?re going to die.

Those realities were too frightening, too difficult to manage, so they eagerly bought into an elaborate lie that others would take care of it for them, that others would lift the burden of providing security from their shoulders.

Oh! The relief they felt when they learned that they didn?t have to worry about defending themselves or their children, because the police would do it for them. They would always get there in time.

The locks on the doors would keep evil at bay.

The ?lockdown drill? would make everybody safe and inaccessible.

Fantasy.

Dangerous fantasy.

The True First Responders
The police officers, firefighters and EMTs call themselves First Responders, but the awful truth that they all know deep down inside, is that they are not.

The citizens involved in these events are the true First Responders to just about any tragedy. They are the ones who are first on scene, and bear the initial responsibility to defend and protect the innocent, and tend to the wounded while they're waiting for the professionals to arrive.

Instead of feeding the lie that it's someone else's responsibility, here's what these citizens need to hear from us:

The real ?First Responder? is YOU. YOU are the one who will always be first on scene when the danger comes. YOU are the one who must be the first to respond to danger. YOU are the one who will keep you alive for the three or four minutes that it takes for the police to get there. YOU are the one who needs to be suitably trained and armed to save yourself and the ones you love.?

That?s a damned scary truth, and many people aren't ready to face it, but it?s the truth, and no amount of hand-wringing or self deception will make it go away.

All across America, ordinary adults don?t want to face that truth, so they buy into the lie. And they feel better. And secure. Right up to the point where some evil bastard breaks into their children?s school and kills them and their classmates in a matter of seconds.

The part that really enrages me is that after it?s all over, they?ll double down on the deceit.

Instead of owning responsibility for their own security, they?ll go to even greater lengths to contract it out. They?ll clamor for more police, more guards, more pat-downs at airports, more screenings, more X-ray machines, more laws, more gun control, more government overreach, more locks, more lockdown drills, and more of everything that didn?t work the first time, the second time, or the last million times that innocents were killed by evil men before they could be rescued by the ?first responders.?

They will recoil in horror at the suggestion that the teachers and administrators that they entrust with their children?s safety should be equipped with the tools they need to ensure that safety.

They will balk at the idea that these teachers should be allowed to volunteer for training that would enable them to carry firearms to protect the children in their classrooms from evil.

They will reject the idea that responsible parent volunteers should be allowed to do the same, that they could somehow make a difference during those precious minutes while everybody is cowering under their desks, waiting for the police to respond.

How many six-year-old children can a madman kill in four minutes, while innocents are waiting for the police to come and save them?

Put yourself into the shoes of those innocents for a moment. Better yet, imagine that it?s your kid hiding under that desk, your wife waiting to confront the shooter when he comes through the door ? wouldn?t you like to give a responsible adult on that campus the ability to stop the attack in the first minute?

How many lives could be saved if the killer didn?t have those extra three minutes to rampage?

Coast to Coast
I mentioned that I was in a hotel when Newtown happened. The hotel was across the street from the Clackamas Town Center shopping mall near Portland (Ore.), where another example of evil incarnate killed two and wounded one in a public shooting just three days prior to the Sandy Hook incident.

For whatever reason, I was drawn to it, so I took a walk over there.

The emergency vehicles were gone. The TV cameras were also gone. The crime scene tape had been removed. On the surface, everything appeared to be back to normal.

I walked through the door of the Macy?s department store ? the same one used by the killer ? and traced the path he took. At the door to the store, I saw a young woman in her early 20s chatting with an elderly man.

The young woman wore the uniform of a contract security guard, complete with shoulder patches. She had no weapon of any sort, but had a charming smile as she explained to the elderly patron that ?yes, this is where he came into the store.?

I briskly walked past them, through the store and towards the exit into the mall, which led directly into the food court area where the murders occurred earlier in the week.

The mall exit was staffed by another petite, young, and unarmed woman in a security uniform. She looked uncomfortable and vulnerable in it. Her body language was not confident. She would have looked more at home in a ?Hot Dog on a Stix? uniform.

In the food court, it was business as usual. The blood had been mopped up, and all the tables and chairs righted. I walked into the center, imagining the deafening echoes of a .223 caliber rifle round going off in this space, bouncing off the tile floors, walls and ceiling.

I looked around, hoping to see some sign that increased security measures were in effect, but I didn?t see anything of the sort. Another security guard, also a small woman, strolled by in the center of the mall in a more officious looking uniform, complete with Smokey Bear hat and shiny badge. But that was all. No weapon.

I saw a kiosk in the center of the food court and approached it. I don?t know if it was a new introduction, or if it had been there on Tuesday, but it was a display with the logo of the Clackamas Sheriff?s Department. It offered various messages and videos about what you could do to stop bullying in schools and secure your valuables from theft.

Strangely, there was nothing on it which instructed you on the steps you should take if an armed killer walked into the food court and started shooting.

So, is this what passes for a response to an active shooter rampage in America today? Just three days prior, two people lay dead and one lay wounded in this very spot because some whack job went over the edge with a stolen weapon in his hand. Just three days before I stood in that spot!

And how did we respond?

The mall?s General Manager, Dennis Curtis, said that ?extra unspecified security procedures [would] be in place? according to an NBC (KGW.com) report, but all I saw was a talisman with a Sheriff?s logo on it, and a trio of young women masquerading as defenders.

I don?t mean that as a personal attack on these women. I?m sure they were all good people, and were dedicated to doing a good job, but none of them were armed with a weapon. This is not an issue of sex ? without a weapon and the training to use it, even the largest and strongest of men would be equally ineffective against another crazed killer armed with a rifle.

Unarmed ?Security? Guards
The best that any of these unarmed people could do would be to serve as a speed bump for the killer to roll over on his way to the target. Although they wore distinctive uniforms that mimicked the look of armed defenders like the military or police, they were neither.

Their uniformed appearance might soothe the sheep, but an unarmed citizen with a cell phone would be no less effective, and could summon help as quickly as one of these unarmed security guards with a radio... monitored on the other end by more unarmed personnel.

I was reminded of Colonel Grossman?s observation that ?an unarmed security guard is not ?security.? It is murder.?

As for the Sheriff?s display, it didn?t even look like it was sturdy enough to provide cover, and it was too small to be effective concealment.

So, this is it? Window dressing in the wake of a multiple homicide? A doubling down on the fantasy that if we look safer, if we feel safer, that we actually are safer?

Sadly, there?s an even greater outrage at work here. In the wake of the Clackamas shooting, word leaked out that a citizen with a legally concealed firearm drew a bead on the shooter and caused him to flee from the scene before he could kill more. The heroic and responsible actions of this citizen short circuited the attack and kept the death toll at two, instead of dozens, but this information has been actively suppressed by the media and those ideologues whose anti-liberty, anti-self defense agenda could be derailed by a positive example of the value of a responsible armed citizen.

Grief Gives Way to Anger
I grieve for the families in Clackamas and Newton. I cannot imagine their sorrow, grief, confusion, and hopelessness. I pray that God will provide them strength and will ease their pain and will take care of them in the same way that I know he is caring for their fallen children.

I also pray for the officers and emergency responders who raced to the scene and encountered the stuff of nightmares. I pray that God will provide them strength and peace as well, because we need them in the fight against Evil more desperately now than at any time in our history.

But I fume with anger at the opportunist politicians ? and clueless citizens ? who would argue that the only way to prevent these tragedies from occurring is to add more locks to the doors, ban guns, disarm law-abiding citizens, and fuel the delusional fantasy that the responsibility for your personal security can be farmed out to other people, that they will be there when you need them, and that they will be able to defend you against a armed attacker with their portable radio to nowhere.

It?s dangerous nonsense.

I pray that another parent will never have to wonder if their child is laying in a pool of blood in the middle of their classroom, but I can guarantee that it will happen again if we buy into the lie once more, if as a nation we embrace the deceit because it?s more comfortable to do so, than to face the truth and make the hard decisions.
 

vGrade

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Northerner

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You hang out on some strange websites Tummy.

The hard truth is that you can't make your kids safe. Sorry about that but it just is not possible. You can make them a bit safer by working to make your society a better place (or by insulating them from that society) but no matter what you do, they'll still be at some risk. Likely a lot more from traffic than mass murderers but there we are.

Now suck it up and get on with your life anyhow.
 

fanaskin

Well known agitator
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Silly goose didn't you know you can't protect yourself? now give up your rights and let father government do it for you!

I find these arguments perplexing, it's definitely a losers attitude to prescribe giving up if something might be difficult.

I've heard these arguments in one form or another that try to pass themselves off as legitimate, I find them absurd to the extreme.
"You can't protect yourself from government DON"T EVEN TRY",
"You can't protect your family DON"T EVEN TRY,"
"Ultimately you can't protect yourself DON"T EVEN TRY."

There's this passive fatalism where people tell you it's not worth trying to protect yourself, your family or your property.
 

Tummysticks

Lord Nagafen Raider
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You hang out on some strange websites Tummy.

The hard truth is that you can't make your kids safe. Sorry about that but it just is not possible. You can make them a bit safer by working to make your society a better place (or by insulating them from that society) but no matter what you do, they'll still be at some risk. Likely a lot more from traffic than mass murderers but there we are.

Now suck it up and get on with your life anyhow.
Would you rather leave your child to face a murderer by himself or would you rather there be another trained, armed adult there standing between your child and the murderer? The second option is referred to as minimizing risk. You do it every day when you put a jacket on before going out in the cold, or putting your seatbelt on before going anywhere in an automobile. Neither of those actions completely negates the risk of becoming cold or getting hurt in an accident, but you do them anyway to minimize the risk of those things.

Fanaskin said it pretty well too.
 

chaos

Buzzfeed Editor
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I used to say I would never have a gun in my house with my kids, and I still feel that way. But I find myself constantly reevaluating that.I think of the father of those kids up in Connecticut or wherever who was tied up in the basement while those guys raped his daughters and then killed them, and yeah maybe a gun wouldn't have helped, maybe he would have died too. But I doubt he would give much of a fuck about that at this point. Then I think about a girl I knew in middle school who was shot in the head by her boyfriend who was fucking around with her father's gun. It is a really difficult decision, for me, but right now I am still going to go with the statistics and not have one.
 

Zombie Thorne_sl

shitlord
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A gun is definately not a failproof device that will instantly save your life and the lives of everyone around you. There are also times when used irresponsibly a gun can make a bad situation worse. However, a responsible gun owner that keeps and maintains a firearm is not likely to ever be in a situation that you think, i wish i didnt have this gun!

I keep a 1911 in a quick access pistol safe in my nightstand drawer with 2 magazines and a good flashlight. A round is chambered and the saftey is on. I honestly do not think i will ever need to use it in a self defense situation, but it is nice to know that is there just in case.

Better to have one and not need it, than to need one and not have it.

I wish you lived around here Chaos, i would take you shooting =)
 

chaos

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I went to the range with some friends when I was in the Navy, I really enjoy it. My concern is the safety of my kids, and statistically getting a gun makes them less safe. But at the same time you read about these things happening and you think "holy fuck I am completely unprepared for that."
 

Gavinmad

Mr. Poopybutthole
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I went to the range with some friends when I was in the Navy, I really enjoy it. My concern is the safety of my kids, and statistically getting a gun makes them less safe. But at the same time you read about these things happening and you think "holy fuck I am completely unprepared for that."
I'm guessing it really only makes them less safe if you're a terrible parent/unsafe gun owner.
 

Tummysticks

Lord Nagafen Raider
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I went to the range with some friends when I was in the Navy, I really enjoy it. My concern is the safety of my kids, and statistically getting a gun makes them less safe. But at the same time you read about these things happening and you think "holy fuck I am completely unprepared for that."
So don't be a statistic. There's all kinds of ways to avoid that. If you're not comfortable with a gun, fine. What other steps have you taken to ensure you and your children's safety? Do you have some other sort of equalizer handy? Do you have any sort of hand to hand training? Have you developed a plan for what to do in the event of a home invasion or other sort of confrontation? Do your wife and kids know the plan and have they practiced it?

I will never force a gun into anyone's hand, but I will preach preparedness. The individual is the most qualified to provide for their safety and the safety of their family. Make sure you're up for the task.
 

Hoss

Make America's Team Great Again
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Those statistics are lies chaos. They ignore the times guns are used for protection.
 

chaos

Buzzfeed Editor
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So don't be a statistic. There's all kinds of ways to avoid that. If you're not comfortable with a gun, fine. What other steps have you taken to ensure you and your children's safety? Do you have some other sort of equalizer handy? Do you have any sort of hand to hand training? Have you developed a plan for what to do in the event of a home invasion or other sort of confrontation? Do your wife and kids know the plan and have they practiced it?

I will never force a gun into anyone's hand, but I will preach preparedness. The individual is the most qualified to provide for their safety and the safety of their family. Make sure you're up for the task.
Do I have a specific plan? No. I have a more or less mental plan, but I don't think you can really just make a TTP for this kind of thing. You have no idea who you'd be facing, where, what situation you would be in, their frame of mind, etc. I have a bat, which is, as you know, a bat. I am hoping to grind on intruders and work my way up to a shovel. My wife, she has an actual plan because for her it is pretty much the same always: get the kids and get into a room and lock it and either call the cops or escape out a window. Or both, ideally.

I don't disagree, you can't rely on cops alone, you have to take some responsibility.
 
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The statistics are pretty indiscriminate. They also account for the irresponsible idiot that leaves 7 loaded guns around every door accidentally shooting himself. If you respect guns and are responsible for your guns, I'd think that the chances of hurting your kids by having a gun in the home is quite lower than the stats would suggest.