Heroes of the Storm

mkopec

mkopec

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This game will do well. Blizzard is known for dumbed down games. I dont mean that in a bad way either. The entrance fee for a filthy casual to play dota2 or lol is mind bogglingly staggering. If they can dumb this down and still keep it fun and engaging, more power to them. They did a great job with the card game. Easy to get into and enough complexity to be hard to master.
 
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Ortega

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mkopec_sl said:
This game will do well. Blizzard is known for dumbed down games. I dont mean that in a bad way either. The entrance fee for a filthy casual to play dota2 or lol is mind bogglingly staggering. If they can dumb this down and still keep it fun and engaging, more power to them. They did a great job with the card game. Easy to get into and enough complexity to be hard to master.
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Oh I'm sure the game will do well, and I do agree with others that learning these types of games when they have crafting recipes and item/skill synergy can be a pain in the ass, but I just think this is going to take away from the fun in the end. I mean what is even the point of the early game? Kill the creeps really fast? That to me seems pretty shallow and boring. Last hitting creeps was a skill, and kept you engaged in the early game. Saving up for items kept you engaged as well.

Comparing this game to hearthstone seems a bit silly to me given that hearthstone has variation. You can build tons of different types of decks. A more apt comparison would be hearthstone where everyone has to play with the basic decks and there are no other cards.
 
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Teron D'Amun

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Ortega_sl said:
Comparing this game to hearthstone seems a bit silly to me given that hearthstone has variation. You can build tons of different types of decks. A more apt comparison would be hearthstone where everyone has to play with the basic decks and there are no other cards.
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But think about all the crazy skins you can buy! Or your WoW pets follow you around ingame and other tie-ins.
 
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Tenks

Bronze Knight of the Realm
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Ortega_sl said:
Oh I'm sure the game will do well, and I do agree with others that learning these types of games when they have crafting recipes and item/skill synergy can be a pain in the ass, but I just think this is going to take away from the fun in the end. I mean what is even the point of the early game? Kill the creeps really fast? That to me seems pretty shallow and boring. Last hitting creeps was a skill, and kept you engaged in the early game. Saving up for items kept you engaged as well.

Comparing this game to hearthstone seems a bit silly to me given that hearthstone has variation. You can build tons of different types of decks. A more apt comparison would be hearthstone where everyone has to play with the basic decks and there are no other cards.
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You're smoking crack with that last paragraph. This game has variety because it has a variety of heroes and I'm sure they'll add more post release. And the early game was pretty apparent from the video which I'm guessing you didn't watch.
 
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kaxfenix

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So much cooler if this game went the way of Disney infinity/Skylanders collectibles type.. Hell I would buy a lot fo the character's just for display purposes I think.
 
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Draegan_sl

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The game seems pretty boring to watch. Just a large group fight chasing each other with wet noodles. Didn't watch the whole thing though. Looked like a ARTS version of Tarren Mill where people attack and run back to their base over and over.
 
Pyros

Pyros

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bixxby_sl said:
So whens this bitch go beta that the plebes might actually get in
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Well in the last video(maybe it was posted here I'm too lazy to check) they said the game was pretty much ready for beta but they were making sure they had the infrastructure to support the load. So I guess not too far off, even though I assume the chances of getting in will be very small, they'll probably invite a lot of people but with as many people as there is wanting to get in, it's gonna suck, similar to hearthstone beta.
 
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Ortega

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Tenks_sl said:
You're smoking crack with that last paragraph. This game has variety because it has a variety of heroes and I'm sure they'll add more post release. And the early game was pretty apparent from the video which I'm guessing you didn't watch.
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Not sure what you're smoking, or if you just didn't play original DOTA and all the other copy cats.... All of the games have heroes with a variety of skills. A shit ton of heroes. How you can take away parts of the core game play like last hitting, and items yet still think having a lot of heroes will offer the same depth is beyond me.
 
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Tenks

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Ortega_sl said:
Not sure what you're smoking, or if you just didn't play original DOTA and all the other copy cats.... All of the games have heroes with a variety of skills. A shit ton of heroes. How you can take away parts of the core game play like last hitting, and items yet still think having a lot of heroes will offer the same depth is beyond me.
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I already went over how they're clearly doing it. They're removing the phase of the game from 1-6 where are just sitting in lane getting gold. Team fights start from level 1 and go the entire game. Since there is no concept of gold to lose out on as long as someone on your team is within XP range of the creeps the flexibility of lane switching and free roaming will be the norm. Instead of in DOTA where the only time you exit your lane in the early part of the game is to gank then run back to your assigned seat.
 
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an accordion_sl

shitlord
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Pyros_sl said:
Well in the last video(maybe it was posted here I'm too lazy to check) they said the game was pretty much ready for beta but they were making sure they had the infrastructure to support the load. So I guess not too far off, even though I assume the chances of getting in will be very small, they'll probably invite a lot of people but with as many people as there is wanting to get in, it's gonna suck, similar to hearthstone beta.
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Probably going to be a big streamer push as well, so ridiculously small chance to get in.
 
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The Ancient_sl

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Tenks_sl said:
I already went over how they're clearly doing it. They're removing the phase of the game from 1-6 where are just sitting in lane getting gold. Team fights start from level 1 and go the entire game. Since there is no concept of gold to lose out on as long as someone on your team is within XP range of the creeps the flexibility of lane switching and free roaming will be the norm. Instead of in DOTA where the only time you exit your lane in the early part of the game is to gank then run back to your assigned seat.
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Yeah, this isn't an inherent problem, people are being short-sighted. Whether the game is a success in the same manner as LoL is hard to tell. It didn't look as entertaining to watch as League.
 
Mures

Mures

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I'm glad they are doing away with last hitting, I've always thought last hitting was dumb and you should get percentage based xp based off of how much damage you dealt to the player/creep. I'm probably wrong, but I can't imagine the creators of dota1 thought last hitting was a good concept, rather it was just that way because of the limitations of the engine the game was made in. And since it has been that way since the beginning, every other moba has followed suit.
 
Amzin

Amzin

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Last hitting (and denying) were not limitations of the War 3 map maker. They both could have been done differently. Same with League.
 
Pyros

Pyros

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The thing is, "teamfights" don't happen from the start either in this. There's 2 lanes, and people are split between the 2lanes. They insist multiple times in the various matches they've shown that you want people in both lanes to maximize xp gains, then you want people to go down the mine(on that map) while you keep people up to still leech the xp there. It isn't 100% teamfight. Mostly you have a few minutes at the start where you're doing NOTHING because you don't need to last hit, so you're trying to find a way to kill someone, which, surprise, you also do in a normal moba. Jungler ganks/bot lane pressure in LoL and trilanes/roamers/gank runes open a lot of small fights early game(and in dota with the availability of TP scrolls they can quickly degenerate into full blown 5vs5 depending on the teams).

Now obviously you wouldn't need to last hit even if you could since there's no items, so no need for gold. What that means however is that you basically cannot win a lane unless you're playing a retard or towers are ignorable(not too sure on that) since all you have to do to not lose your lane is stand in xp range and not die. It makes all the early game pointless as fuck as far as they've shown. Whoever wins the early game gets exactly no advantage whatsoever, and the game is decided in the last 5minutes or so, depending on who plays the last couple of teamfights best/has the best hero composition, and everything before is just there as a massive filler. You cannot win or lose lanes and winning the secondary objectives early on doesn't really bring any serious advantage since the heroes aren't able to properly capitalize on the golems/canons due to being too low.

As for depth/variety, removing items removes a very large amount of variety. There is no arguing this. LoL often has 2 or more potential builds for a given champion(AP, AD, hybrid, support, tank, one of these) while Dota items simply can change a hero into something entirely different since most of them give unique gamechanging abilities(blinking, invisibility, pushing units, magic immunity, physical immunity, illusions, spellblock, cooldowns reset etc).

I'm still very interested in this game and I think there's potential for a hearthstone type of success, but in no way this is going to come close to dota or lol in terms of competitiveness/depth, similar to how HS isn't close to MTG. And dota2 is getting player made custom game modes soon enough.
 
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Ortega

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I'm not sure where all the butt hurt over lack of items/denying criticism is coming from. Sure there are small benefits to no items and denying in terms of faster games where you get into Hero vs. Hero battles a lot faster, but ultimately it makes for a very shallow game. In my opinion they could've just made a mode with no items or denying and called it good. I guess I'm just super jaded and see this as an attempt by Blizzard to avoid the complications of item balance with a wide variety of heroes.

Do I think this game will still be fun? Of course, but I also think that it could've dethroned LoL had they went with the more complex route.
 
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Golt_sl

shitlord
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Yep, couldn't agree more with what Pyros said. I certainly can see the appeal of the game and I'm not trying to knock what Blizzard is doing, just saying I'm a bit disappointed because i was pretty bored watching the video. I know, still in alpha/beta things could change etc. It undoubtedly will do well, F2P with the blizzard fanbase and extremely small barrier of entry to play. Also in a game like this, having multiple maps makes sense I suppose, but I actually don't prefer the variety. I like that dota/league have a single map, it's like how football or basketball have a single design. You don't need other ways to make the game interesting, the same field to me keeps it on a more even playing field. The variety will probably be enticing for players, I'm just not the target audience I guess.

Edit disclaimer: Before anyone points it out I know League has aram/3v3/dominion maps, but none of those are actually competitive ranked modes and aren't really treated as more than just fun optional game modes.
 
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Tenks

Bronze Knight of the Realm
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Pyros_sl said:
The thing is, "teamfights" don't happen from the start either in this. There's 2 lanes, and people are split between the 2lanes. They insist multiple times in the various matches they've shown that you want people in both lanes to maximize xp gains, then you want people to go down the mine(on that map) while you keep people up to still leech the xp there. It isn't 100% teamfight. Mostly you have a few minutes at the start where you're doing NOTHING because you don't need to last hit, so you're trying to find a way to kill someone, which, surprise, you also do in a normal moba. Jungler ganks/bot lane pressure in LoL and trilanes/roamers/gank runes open a lot of small fights early game(and in dota with the availability of TP scrolls they can quickly degenerate into full blown 5vs5 depending on the teams).

Now obviously you wouldn't need to last hit even if you could since there's no items, so no need for gold. What that means however is that you basically cannot win a lane unless you're playing a retard or towers are ignorable(not too sure on that) since all you have to do to not lose your lane is stand in xp range and not die. It makes all the early game pointless as fuck as far as they've shown. Whoever wins the early game gets exactly no advantage whatsoever, and the game is decided in the last 5minutes or so, depending on who plays the last couple of teamfights best/has the best hero composition, and everything before is just there as a massive filler. You cannot win or lose lanes and winning the secondary objectives early on doesn't really bring any serious advantage since the heroes aren't able to properly capitalize on the golems/canons due to being too low.

As for depth/variety, removing items removes a very large amount of variety. There is no arguing this. LoL often has 2 or more potential builds for a given champion(AP, AD, hybrid, support, tank, one of these) while Dota items simply can change a hero into something entirely different since most of them give unique gamechanging abilities(blinking, invisibility, pushing units, magic immunity, physical immunity, illusions, spellblock, cooldowns reset etc).

I'm still very interested in this game and I think there's potential for a hearthstone type of success, but in no way this is going to come close to dota or lol in terms of competitiveness/depth, similar to how HS isn't close to MTG. And dota2 is getting player made custom game modes soon enough.
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You're trying to assign a ton of age-old ARTS stuff to a game that is clearly not trying to be just another ARTS on the market. I don't think Blizzard has ever said they want this to be a competitive eSport. Just because they're commentating it for the purposes of showing the game off doesn't mean it is here to be the next great eSport. Just like how Hearthstone is clearly not going to be one. This game could easily not have a traditional concept of winning and losing lanes. I also believe it is still traditional top/mid/bot and not just two lanes but it could be map dependent. So if you aim for an early game kill and achieve it with no other enemies in the area you have effectively cut their XP gained by 33%. I'd say that is "winning the lane" right there.

I also think with the lack of items that you can really open up the unit design. With DOTA you know that, given the money, every hero can have the ability to blink. Every hero can gain the ability to reflect damage. Every hero can gain the ability to gain a high crit chance. I can't think of anything off the top of my head to capitalize on more specific unit design but I believe the opportunity arises.

Have they shown anything about how you actually level these guys? It looks like in the UI it was similar to a traditional ARTS where you had your QWER skills. I would be very, very interested if they had an in-depth talent tree for each character. Similar to WoW or Diablo 2. Instead of just +1 to my Q. That alone would open up tons of variety to the heroes without needing items to dictate.
 
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an accordion_sl

shitlord
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Tenks_sl said:
Just because they're commentating it for the purposes of showing the game off doesn't mean it is here to be the next great eSport. Just like how Hearthstone is clearly not going to be one.
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I don't agree with this at all, as soon as Hearthstone adds a spectator mode, there will be an insane number of tournaments. It may not be Blizzard main intent for either game, but it will happen because the fanbase is there.

Tenks_sl said:
Have they shown anything about how you actually level these guys? It looks like in the UI it was similar to a traditional ARTS where you had your QWER skills. I would be very, very interested if they had an in-depth talent tree for each character. Similar to WoW or Diablo 2. Instead of just +1 to my Q. That alone would open up tons of variety to the heroes without needing items to dictate.
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It is basic talent trees.
 
Sulrn

Sulrn

Deuces
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You're not going to see a high skill ceiling though. Items and individual exp are what promote that. Even their "strikers" deal relatively low dmg and most of what I saw cast was AOE or direct target. So what skill is there left? Who can kite to their team/gate better? Please. That's not skill, that's a game without substance.
 
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