fanaskin
Well known agitator
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nah just the way the land shaped, geography is destiny.
china's one giant bowl surrounded on most sides.
History thread
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nah just the way the land shaped, geography is destiny.
china's one giant bowl surrounded on most sides.
TrollfaceDeux
Pronouns: zie/zhem/zer
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If you look at China from topographical point of view, we could have easily ended up with North China and South China.
Furthermore, North and South Chinese have distinct identities that are set apart by ethnicity and language.
China's destiny was hardly a singular one.
Bare in mind by India was divided into gazillions of small kingdoms, religion, ethnicity despite such dense demography...
fanaskin
Well known agitator
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they're co dependent, each have too many problems to stand apart, that's why the power sharing happens today, every so many years north and south switch leaders.
TrollfaceDeux
Pronouns: zie/zhem/zer
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I don't know what that means. I know that China would've have made more sense as a two kingdom but history and shared identity at this point would not make that real.
Chinese culture is all about assimilation and homogeneity. This is why China as a whole works while Western world is on the brink of splintering.
yerm
Golden Baronet of the Realm
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They were excellent at assimilating people. An education-backed meritocracy with heavy Han culture does wonders for it. Chinese were not merely lucky; Confucian philosophy is built on community, and fuels integration.
It also helped that central Asian culture was somewhat weak and Tengriism arguably the weakest of any major religion, in terms of resisting other cultures. It wasn't just China here; Islam flipped them easily and Orthodoxy did not struggle... unless they had flipped to Islam already. China had it easy with groups like the Manchus.
Geography did help though; Persia is another good example of a similar type of naturally enclosed region and cultural preservation inside.
TrollfaceDeux
Pronouns: zie/zhem/zer
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Song Dynasty by Mongol time generated some of the most enlightened and prosperous period in Chinese History.
China was divided into four kingdoms by Mongol periods. North, South, Northwest, and Southwest.
Manchus (or Jurchen) raided Song from the North and exploited Song's military weakness.
China's history is a cycle of repetition. Great dynasty rises. Internal corruption rises and bureaucracy is weakened. Military rampant with corruption and divided loyalty. Northern warlords take advantage of internal weakness. Dynasty is plagued with rebellion. Etc.
Confucius teachings makes this cycle more acceptable in the minds of Chinese people and they have no remedy for them because they believe this is the Heaven's way. To rebel against the law of the nature is evil.
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TrollfaceDeux
Pronouns: zie/zhem/zer
- 19,577
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hilarious part about Manchu is that, despite Manchu retaining some of their culture, they adopted themselves into a larger milieu of Han China once Qing Dynasty had absolved Ming Dynasty--Making Manchuria a defacto territory of China once and for all.
Fucking lulz.
Dandain
Trakanon Raider
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The social structure of Eastern society gets as much credit for Chinese stability as anything. To shame your family, lineage, expectations of your life. All these things sort of pre-programmed most individuals to exist on a path for their life. The social mobility of Ancient Chinese society was extremely limited when extended to every individual. It's an honor culture, not a value culture. There is a lot of group to group racism in China. Something like 35~ different ethnic groups reside within china. You definitely still today don't want to be at the bottom of this list.
One argument for why the Chinese did not continue their technological edge, while starting centuries ahead Europe in knowledge, is that their society by structure is not one of free criticism. This lack of capacity to criticize closes off all new knowledge growth where ever it takes hold. The structure, an individuals place in it, the unseemliness of being a disrupter, and no tradition of criticism all guarantee that new knowledge can only be happened upon accidentally. The inertia of being an expert and unreplaceable were still huge parts of the Chinese bureaucracy.
Eastern religions are not the same as Western religions, however one thing remains consistent. They are all bad explanations of how things truly are. Certain realms of society about how things were said to be were still inoculated from criticism in the face of their culture's bad explanations.
One argument for why the Chinese did not continue their technological edge, while starting centuries ahead Europe in knowledge, is that their society by structure is not one of free criticism. This lack of capacity to criticize closes off all new knowledge growth where ever it takes hold. The structure, an individuals place in it, the unseemliness of being a disrupter, and no tradition of criticism all guarantee that new knowledge can only be happened upon accidentally. The inertia of being an expert and unreplaceable were still huge parts of the Chinese bureaucracy.
Eastern religions are not the same as Western religions, however one thing remains consistent. They are all bad explanations of how things truly are. Certain realms of society about how things were said to be were still inoculated from criticism in the face of their culture's bad explanations.
Titan_Atlas
Deus Vult
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Cut this down to important points. Multiculturalism-poison.
Moral relativism-poison.
Egalitarianism-poison.
Atheism- poison. This one people will debate but a community based philosophy is just community based morality. You can't have every idiot just making up their own morality at odds with each other because individual>community.
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Omi43221
Trakanon Raider
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I'm always perplexed when people say on a whole China is working when roughly 2/3 of their people work in manual farm work or repetitive low skilled factory jobs. They work better than Venezuela that's about all you can say, they are way worse than most of Europe and all of North America.
TrollfaceDeux
Pronouns: zie/zhem/zer
- 19,577
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When people talk about China best way to describe their machine is culture.
If China were to desolve because of economic inferiority they will not divide on tje basis of ethnicity or culture but political and familial divide.
When the Western world desolve because of economic inferiority, they will divide on the basis of political ambitions of groups and divide the land and resources on that.
China works because Chinese society offers one of the most stable environment for labour exploitation.
Look at fucking Africa. They will work for crumbs compared to China but why is it that investment into their geography is slower compared to say East Asia and Southeast Asia?
Africa sits on the middle of geography which benefita both Europe and America. Why not?
Because of inferior culture. Because of inferior people.
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yerm
Golden Baronet of the Realm
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Atheism does not necessitate a lack of basic morality. It necessitates a lack of belief in the supernatural without proof. The moral relativism and other absurdities are incidentally held by atheists in western society; they are not fundamentally tied together the way altruism is to Christianity or discipline is to Confucianism.
Also, Egalitarianism is another strange one to throw in. Again, try not to drag in our current bullshit where it doesn't fit. The Egalitarian idea of everyone is treated fairly (eg under the law) and everyone has the opportunity to succeed, these are good. These are how the USA rose. This is frankly the basis of meritocratic systems and the key to real success and to proper capitalism. What China did NOT have is the perverted pseudo-Egalitarianism where everyone needs to be rewarded the same, end up with the same outcomes, or enjoy the same quality of life. It was not the responsibility of the central or provincial governments to coddle the weak; if you were born at a disadvantage (eg dumb) too fucking bad. Equal opportunity Egalitarianism necessarily means the fit will rise and the unfit will suffer, unless you're perverting it with socialism or something similar.
Egalitarianism and Atheism are not inherently poison the way moral relativism and modern multiculturalism are.
TrollfaceDeux
Pronouns: zie/zhem/zer
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Chinese Civil Examination System was very meritocratic and insanely difficult. No matter who you were, Han Chinese or whatever, you can take the examination. Your tests were marked anonymously and Chinese Imperial Courts spent enormous effort to make it transparent and corrupted (but there are exceptions...still, not as rampant as you might think). Only a few would become a top-tier intelligentsia but that is okay because once you pass even the first examination, you are almost set for life. You look at middle age Europe and you would see the peasants, soldiers, priests, merchants, lords and princes, and kings. In China, same holds true but throw in intelligentsia which was actually a form of class... People who know a lot about Chinese classics, history, and basic literati customs of China. They lived off government stipends.This continued well into 1900s and Mao and large majority of Chinese communists members were part of this class.
Of course, this also created strange tension between the intelligentsia and anti-intelligentsia which accumulated into Cultural Revolution and Anti-Rightist Campaign. Shit was nuts. Chinese trying to wipe away their centuries old intelligentsia class. It took 3-4 purges to make it stick....
TrollfaceDeux
Pronouns: zie/zhem/zer
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Titan_Atlas
Deus Vult
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The natural slippery slope of Egalitarianism is, to what we have now. If you have an honest system that says people are not equals, and we are going to separate you into groups with the specific purpose of moving society forward, it would be better. The problem with Egalitarianism is simple, who is the judge of equality? Look how petty people are about the simplest differences? Where we are now is just the natural result, you don't get to look into the past with rose colored glasses and say, we can reset to this point that I think was better. The system is flawed and dishonest and I am calling that out.
As far as Atheism, fine you're right everyone can have good functioning morality on a personal level. Just, you have to point me to the society where that is happening. The great thing about a HIGHER power is it keeps people in line. In a civilization you need to keep people in line. I really don't care if it is Christianity or Confucianism. A binding social moral contract that is enforced evenly is a necessary component of a long lasting society.
Titan_Atlas
Deus Vult
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Titan is a bit of a dunce who posts to much, you don't need to respond to him
You're a moron and should die in a fire.
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