IT/Software career thread: Invert binary trees for dollars.

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Tenks said:
That is because we've channeled our powers of autism for good. You can read through the general forum and see people who are channeling their powers of autism for evil.
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I actually didn't spend much time looking for stray commas or spaces or whatever.

Whenever I would help people fix things I was always seriously alarmed that they'd be just sitting there looking at code trying to "figure it out" rather than adding debug statements and really showing whats going on. I'd sit down and plow 20 debug statements in to narrow the problem, then identify the problem code, identify all inputs to the problem code, and it'd be a completely obvious fix. People would stare at me like I'm a voodoo doctor.
 
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Tenks

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That assumes a certain amount of comfort with an IDE and probably already learning from the mistakes previously of having to hunt down some shit because you were too ignorant to understand where/how to use breakpoints effectively. Anymore with a high level of proficiency with unit testing, remote debugging and Intellij experience I can rather quickly and accurately diagnose and fix a problem -- but I also remember that was not always the case. When you start out writing .java files in Notepad you aren't granted such luxury. Possibly things have changed and people learn on full blown IDEs but I feel like having to learn Eclipse AND having to learn how to program at once would be a monumental overtaking. Hell I had to take not one but two classes in high school just to learn Office and Office is easier to use than modern IDEs.
 
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Tenks said:
Because most people would rather die than spend an hour looking for the one keystroke difference in the input parameter that is causing your program to crash? Or worse yet code that looks perfectly fine and good is not behaving in the expected manner and chasing that for 2 hours? Or having to constantly on a nearly annual basis relearn and reinvent your tool set to make sure you're staying modern? Having to translate from a non-technical person's English into working software that you know for a 100% certainty will have to be modified because it is never right the first time?
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I spent an hour fixing a bug, just to realize, there was a white space at the end of an user entered string that was making things fail.

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Deathwing

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Tenks said:
That assumes a certain amount of comfort with an IDE and probably already learning from the mistakes previously of having to hunt down some shit because you were too ignorant to understand where/how to use breakpoints effectively. Anymore with a high level of proficiency with unit testing, remote debugging and Intellij experience I can rather quickly and accurately diagnose and fix a problem -- but I also remember that was not always the case. When you start out writing .java files in Notepad you aren't granted such luxury. Possibly things have changed and people learn on full blown IDEs but I feel like having to learn Eclipse AND having to learn how to program at once would be a monumental overtaking. Hell I had to take not one but two classes in high school just to learn Office and Office is easier to use than modern IDEs.
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IDEs definitely help. I would enjoy writing Python MUCH less without the use of a heavy IDE like PyCharm. I had to do some work with C++99 recently and everyone here uses fucking xemacs, so support for a heavy IDE like visual studio was non existent. It was alarming the difference of stuff I could do(easily) in Python just because of the IDE but not do C++ because I basically had to use a fucking text editor.
 
Noodleface

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Some dudes here refuse to use the ide and insist on a shit load of Unix macros and shit for finding stuff.
 
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Noodleface said:
Some dudes here refuse to use the ide and insist on a shit load of Unix macros and shit for finding stuff.
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Architect at my old job worked on a massive Spring laden Java program and refused to use anything other than emacs. With the amount of Spring integration in Eclipse/Intellij that makes developing Spring apps I couldn't believe she refused to swap.
 
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Tenks said:
Architect at my old job worked on a massive Spring laden Java program and refused to use anything other than emacs. With the amount of Spring integration in Eclipse/Intellij that makes developing Spring apps I couldn't believe she refused to swap.
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I learned to program in vi on a VAX. IDE's are a luxury.

But you have to be holy shitballs stupid not to use IDE's when they are available.
 
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I'd actually prefer to be a full time developer but because my career has mostly been in the "admin" arena, I'd probably have to take a paycut to be a junior dev for a little while and I can't afford that. On the other hand, I get to do plenty of scripting and some small compiled stuff when it makes sense. Realistically the main difference between a 50k admin and a 100k one is that the 100k one is probably competent at programming.

I've worked with lots of old guys (mostly in government) who don't want to learn how to use a debugger so they write in tons of print statements. Problem is that they forget to comment/remove them and have apps that make their way to production with debug shit splattering all over the screen.
 
Deathwing

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I understand being comfortable with what you know, especially when it's the thousands of emacs shortcuts. Who knows when programming on an 80-char console will be popular again!?!
 
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So T Tenks the guy I talked to is going to looking into doing it in ROR and thinks it's very feasible. He has agreed to stay open source and on github so that I can later get more people interested in it and build more onto it.

He is doing some research to see what framework he can build on and keep it around $500 for his time.

He works on other big open source projects in his free time and is interested in the idea.
 
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Tenks

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RoR would probably be a good solution for your problemset. I just didn't even think about it since I have no experience with the language and framework.
 
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a_skeleton_03

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Tenks said:
RoR would probably be a good solution for your problemset. I just didn't even think about it since I have no experience with the language and framework.
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Yeah I haven't played with it at all. Most of my self hosted stuff I play with is NodeJS or Python. I know a very very tiny bit of it to fix things here and there.

I am really hoping for this guy to just get it all fleshed out and the basics working so that then I can start pushing it around places and get people interested in contributing to it.
 
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Tenks

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RoR is about the least sexy thing out there. May hinder finding people willing to contribute.
 
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Rails is awesome include 47 gems so your site can be 5 lines that nobody can tell what its doing

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wilkxus

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Deathwing said:
I don't understand the general disdain for writing code. There's a lot of bullshit baggage involved, but just about any job has a bunch of required cruft that you have to do in addition to the good stuff. But actual writing code? Automating the computer in an intelligent and creative manner? IDK, I'll take that all day long, please.
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Lol.... then count yourself as very lucky in the jobs you have had so far.

Just sharing my opinion for others who are thinking of becoming developers.

Vast majority of programming jobs have absolutely NOTHING to do with automating the computer in an intelligent OR creative manner. If you ever do any consulting.... especially business and or finance (where a lot of the money is) .... good luck finding the handfulls of jobs that require intelligence or creativity. The rest just require minions. But you can make boatloads of money fleecing suckers doing dumb shit automation stuff all day.

To stay a developer for along time and fit your definition would IMO require working on products that are interesting, challenging and require skill, intelligence and creativity AND working on a NICE team..... Your average programming gig is not that at all. Some areas like High Performance Computing or big tech companies such as IBM, AMD, Google or Intel you might have an easier time:), but the bar of entry and experience to get there is pretty high.
 
Noodleface

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BIOS was like the most interesting job I could imagine. Unfortunately not many places for that.

Radar is cool too.
 
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wilkxus said:
Lol.... then count yourself as very lucky in the jobs you have had so far.

Just sharing my opinion for others who are thinking of becoming developers.

Vast majority of programming jobs have absolutely NOTHING to do with automating the computer in an intelligent OR creative manner. If you ever do any consulting.... especially business and or finance (where a lot of the money is) .... good luck finding the handfulls of jobs that require intelligence or creativity. The rest just require minions. But you can make boatloads of money fleecing suckers doing dumb shit automation stuff all day.

To stay a developer for along time and fit your definition would IMO require working on products that are interesting, challenging and require skill, intelligence and creativity AND working on a NICE team..... Your average programming gig is not that at all. Some areas like High Performance Computing or big tech companies such as IBM, AMD, Google or Intel you might have an easier time:), but the bar of entry and experience to get there is pretty high.
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Part of IBM might be that way, but the lion's share of their employees still do outsourced-IT work, and that's even worse.
 
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So I'm doing this Code Louisville program that is pretty cool. Its a 12 week boot camp where you self instruct learn front and then in a second 12 weeks, back end web server design and management. Totally free, its a government jobs program for the region to try and provide more code monkeys for the local business universe.

Advice is welcome. Biggest hurdle is just completing a project. I got just under 90 days (March 31 at noon to push to Github), a few pretty decent ideas that are manageable, and enough understanding to get started + resources, including free access to Treehouse.

Right now the focus is HTML/CSS/Javascript which, tbh, pretty intuitive and not really that hard to grasp. Putting it all together seems to be the hardest part.

I feel pretty competent to accomplish this, but yeah. I mean advice on work flow or just general advice is welcome.
 
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