Justice League (2017)

Gavinmad

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No, Whedon was never going to make a good movie either. He just took what he was given and put it together in almost the worst imaginable way.
 
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Haus

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So......

Mrs. Haus Mrs. Haus and I sank 4 hours this evening into this. My personal review? This movie made FAR MORE SENSE than the Whedon version. Cyborg was a FAR better character in this, and the Flash was at least slightly more tolerable. Which brings me to my Flash Derail! The Flash problems boils to casting, same as the TV show. In the TV show they found someone who would make a GREAT Wally West, and cast him as Barry Allen. In the movie they found a guy who would be a GREAT Impulse... then cast him as Barry Allen. They have yet to find a good Barry Allen actor. (Although I did like Josh Wesley Shipp in the role in the 90's... Yes, I remember that show when it was new) But this Flash still just grated me, admittedly LESS than the other movie.

I thought BatFleck was actually well done. He played Bruce Wayne well which I always appreciate. I think at his age this was a good representation of Batman somwhere between what we think of normally, and the Miller Dark Knight. About the age where he should discover Damien and be training him.

I appreciated the Cavill Superman, Black suit was a nice touch. That and it let Snyder work out more of his dark clothing fetish. Even Stephenwolff was better, although I kept thinking he was Megatron.

Plotwise - This made so much more sense. But it still suffers from one thing. I think Mrs. Haus nailed it when she said "Snyder knows how to make great moments, but he doesn't know how to weave together a story." And the way he broke this into chapters made that even move evident. That and it was pretty easy to tell this was supposed to be multiple movies and it suffered from being jammed together.

I'd give this a 7/10.
 
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spronk

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pre B v S, Snyder's JL movie was part 1 of 3 JL movies, in the second one it would have involved Darkseid attacking Earth and part 3 would have focused entirely on the future apocalypse, Darkseid used anti-life to turn Superman evil and starts wiping out life on Earth. Snyder originally wanted it to be that Batman sleeps with Lois Lane, she has a baby (whose the daddy?), and somehow Lois dies which turns superman insane and corrupted by Darkseid, and The Riddler would have figured out the anti-life equation and how to fight it -- yeah this all sounds batshit insane lol.

The entire 3h40m movie was done entirely with scenes filmed 4-5 years ago, the ONLY thing reshot in the past 9 months was the epilogues, the Knightmare stuff and the Martian Manhunter showing up to talk to Batman. Everything else was scenes shot by Snyder and re-edited, CGI'd, ADR'd for new lines, etc. Maybe some of the Darkseid stuff was new but it was basically all CGI with no main cast on screen anyways. In Snyders original idea Darkseid woulda just shown up at the end of the movie sorta like Thanos teaser. The Knightmare stuff was filmed with multiple sets in different locations and composited together, like Flash was filming Fantastic Beasts 3 in London so thats why his character seems a bit off in the epilogue.

Obviously Whedon gave an incomprehensible turd of a movie but his directive from WB was that JL had to be 2 hours or less, not a second longer, I think we all agree now he could have delivered an infinitely better movie but on the other hand I think the Snyder cut would not have gotten as much faint praise as it has this year if we didn't have the Whedon version to contrast it to. Plus after seeing a decent Aquaman movie and a shitty WW84 movie it helps the Snyder cut find its place.
 
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Caeden

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I’m gonna admit that for brainless fun that feels visceral and has some visual flash, I like Zack Snyder a lot, particularly his director cuts.

Upshot is after the movie I was honestly disappointed we wouldn’t see his universe finished.
 
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Mrs. Haus

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I'm glad we won't see Snyder's complete evisceration of Superman continue. Yes, this version was better but a polished turd is still a turd. If he ever actually read the comics, other than the absolute shit that was the New 52, I would be shocked. Fans overwhelmingly rejected the New 52 and the fact that this crappy Snyderverse took so much inspiration from it meant it wasn't going to resonate with the audience anyway.

The first Wonder Woman had heart and a good way to portray a strong female character; and Aquaman was a good visual experience while being brainless fun (but still not really a "good" movie.) All the rest have been diarrhea wrapped in a urine soaked diaper. He doesn't understand the characters, especially Superman. Ezra Miller was the single worst casting decision I have ever seen. I don't want Snyder near any comic book character ever again.

This, along with JarJar Abrams's upcoming locust invasion and destruction of DC on film, means I don't know if we will ever get DC characters on anything other than CW again in my lifetime. ATT will think there is no demand for Superman or Justice League when, in reality, Warner's atrocious choices in showrunners and directors will have been the murder weapon that killed DC.

I freaking despise them for completely destroying the two comic book characters I have loved since I was like 5.
 
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a c i d.f l y

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The first year of Superman (1938-1940) and Batman (1939-1940, Superman definitely used lethal force, and Batman used guns. Prudes of the time questioned whether comics were good for children, created a coalition, and determined that no "hero" would use lethal force. Mostly because it allowed villains to come back, instead of having to vomit up new characters.

I can't recall any earlier issues, but Batman used a gun, exploding a helicopter and killing 4 dudes in Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns (1986). He also breaks the Joker's neck after years of the Joker escaping killing and disabling people he knows. This is similarly implied at the end of The Killing Joke (1988).

We're not in the Golden Age of Superhero Friends and Adam West's Batman. The current model is that they will only use lethal force when absolutely necessary. Superman has to kill this Kryptonian creature because it's going to die anyway unless it eats a bunch of people. Superman *doesn't* kill Darkseid on his own planet because millions of his slaves with starve and die on Apokolips. Batman is literally just a dude in body armor. If stealth isn't an option, he's basically fucked if it doesn't involve guns and knives.

The fact that people don't literally disintegrate after Superman punches them with a near light speed hit, causing miny, nuclear fusion explosions, wiping out half a city in a straight line from his punch is the part that's "not realistic". If The Flash tapped something going faster than light, the resulting explosion would tear a whole space time.

That said, I get what you're trying to say. They've generally always had a message. Good. Truth. Justice. All that jazz. And it's completely missing from Snyder's because he's telling a story, not a parable. The "real world" isn't fair, or just, and war and conflict is bloody and destructive. Maybe there is a message, and it's that all of that stuff is bullshit. Though I don't think he's trying to be that deep.
 

pysek

It Didn't Happen, It Should've, and It Will.
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You make more than $200 grand for a couple months work and can't handle a little bit of aggression, get the fuck out of here. There's a reason people like Tom Cruise who make tens of millions snap at fucking hacks in the industry. Pussies are gonna make pussy content, fewer folks are going to consume it, you're going to make less money. I'd like to see some of these cucks in a multi-billion dollar board meeting and talk about getting their fee fees hurtied. Even the women at that level are cold hard bitches.
But they aren't. Not anymore. For the last three or four years now. I couldn't figure it out. For the longest time, because I agreed with you, the almighty dollar was the bottom line and once this woke shit started costing them, they'd give it up. But they didn't. Why?

Because it's a religion. Through and through. And now the government is in on it. You wanna see what tyranny looks like cloaked in 'righteousness'? It ain't the jesus freaks that you oughta worry about. Never was. Now you have the state married to a religious ideology and business and entertainment and everyone else is gonna worship at the altar because it's SO much easier to get our money through the mighty guns of the government than to make shit we WANT to see and pay for. Capitalism is HARD and these kids don't want to work.

Tie your scarf on tight, kids, it's to be a cold night.
 
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Nirgon

YOU HAVE NO POWER HERE
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I'm glad we won't see Snyder's complete evisceration of Superman continue. Yes, this version was better but a polished turd is still a turd. If he ever actually read the comics, other than the absolute shit that was the New 52, I would be shocked. Fans overwhelmingly rejected the New 52 and the fact that this crappy Snyderverse took so much inspiration from it meant it wasn't going to resonate with the audience anyway.

The first Wonder Woman had heart and a good way to portray a strong female character; and Aquaman was a good visual experience while being brainless fun (but still not really a "good" movie.) All the rest have been diarrhea wrapped in a urine soaked diaper. He doesn't understand the characters, especially Superman. Ezra Miller was the single worst casting decision I have ever seen. I don't want Snyder near any comic book character ever again.

This, along with JarJar Abrams's upcoming locust invasion and destruction of DC on film, means I don't know if we will ever get DC characters on anything other than CW again in my lifetime. ATT will think there is no demand for Superman or Justice League when, in reality, Warner's atrocious choices in showrunners and directors will have been the murder weapon that killed DC.

I freaking despise them for completely destroying the two comic book characters I have loved since I was like 5.
Zach Snyder is tearin this family apart!


On a more serious note: yeah they could use this IP to make the best superhero movies ever and Hollywood is holding it back.
 
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Mrs. Haus

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I'm not talking about the killing, at least that is not the main point. Having him kill Zod to keep that one family from getting murdered, when Zod & his followers had just killed thousands and this version of Superman didn't lure them away from the freaking city, makes literally no sense. Though, regardless of what they originally did with the characters in comics, you have like 50+ years precedent where he DOESN'T kill. Batman, too. And it's a moral quandary because there have been multiple stories showing if they had just killed the particular villain, then more people wouldn't have died. "Cross that line and I will become worse than the villains I fight." The current model, comics or film, doesn't work because no one is buying the comics/watching the films. It's agenda-driven garbage written and drawn and filmed by people who hate their audience, and the audience responds to that. Rebirth brought a big boost to DC, and introducing the original, decent Superman back energized readers. They even, through Wally's monologue in DC Rebirth 1 as he was trying to reach out to people from the Speed Force, showed they realized the fans didn't like the way the heroes were being written. Sadly, that only lasted a few years before they forgot about why people came back to reading their comics and the infection that ruined it in the first place took root again.

Back to the movies, Johnathan Kent was done super dirty, too, by Snyder. Having Pa Kent tell Clark he should have let people die. Then, letting Clark watch him die when Clark knows he could have saved him, not caring what it would do to Superman's psyche, is pure evil. In the comics, Pa Kent dies in different reboots. But it's almost always a heart attack or something similar. And there is a reason for that. It is to show that there are some things, no matter his godlike abilities, that Superman simply can't win against and there are just some people that cannot be saved. He is, in fact, not a god.

Trying to put realism into a superhero movie is just a dumbass proposition in the first place. (Joker wasn't an actual comic book movie.) You're absolutely right, Superman and Wonder Woman, hell even Flash, would be killing pretty much every person they fought if real world physics applied.

Don't get me wrong either, I like Elseworlds stories. The Injustice games and the accompanying comics are awesome and brutal and heartbreaking. I loved them for what they were. The problem is, even as an Elseworlds, Snyder's movies are an incoherent, headscratching mess. The whole way Doomsday came into being was just plain stupid. Batman and Superman fighting in the first place because of the reasons Snyder set up was completely idiotic and makes both look weak, stupid and unworthy. For his version of JL, somehow Darkseid remembered he got his ass handed to him on earth and lost the mother boxes there but forgot that earth is the location of the thing he has been searching for his entire existence? Superman flies off fast enough to create a sonic boom with Lois in his arms? Wonder Woman blows up half a building to take out a single bad guy, not caring that all the police and bystanders under could/should be crushed by the falling rubble? Also, Superman is weak to magic. How did he casually shrug off Wonder Woman's lasso? There are many, many more egregious decisions Snyder made but those are the ones right at the forefront of my mind atm.

Again, I am saying I don't think Snyder actually ever read the comics, at least not any before or after the New 52. He sucks. I get that people like him, though I can't see why personally because most of his movies are just not good - and he loves his slow-mo like JarJar Abrams loves his lens flares. I just can't stand him. I have always been way more of a DC fan than Marvel (X-Men being the exception and Marvel fucked them 7 ways from Sunday in the comics and movies) and I just hate what he and Warner did to the characters and mythology.

Though, like I wrote, with JarJar and his franchise-killing touch, along with his woke agenda (his wife was a key person in the poundmetoo bs), it's only going to get worse if you are a DC fan like I am.
 
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Haus

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Zach Snyder is tearin this family apart!


On a more serious note: yeah they could use this IP to make the best superhero movies ever and Hollywood is holding it back.

I think it's more that I'm more easily entertained and can turn a blind eye to some inconsistencies and problems. OTOH, my better half gets a bit more fired up about things.. ;)

Example, I still kinda enjoy the CW Flash, mostly because I can mentally compartmentalize the actions of the CW (like firing the guy playing Ralph over decades old jokes, the actress that plays Iris being basically a raging anti-white racist, and the guy who plays the Flash completely cucking to the SJW crowd) and look at the story itself, which usually isn't bad until they get into SJW storytime.

Also, it doesn't hurt that I just fast forward 30 seconds whenever we hit "people.. in hallways.. talking about their feelings..." and haven't missed a plot point yet.
 
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Xerge

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Snyder cut has many eye brow raising moments but compared side by side to the yesman that is Joss Whedon (Gal didn't even film the dumb Flash scene), Snyder will at least produce something that's not completely hacked.

Whedon is getting the last laugh -- the man got his payday back in 2017 and so did WB. This was a no brainer for them. Was literally free money.

WB round table: Hey you guys wanna release a new movie for 70mil cost?
WB: I'd buy that for a dollar


1616880793245.png
 
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Caeden

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Snyder made the most interesting Superman movie ever even if he fucked up that Superman would have led Zod away. That’s my only complaint. Him having to take a life to understand the impact was pretty damn good character development for a Snyder movie.

and I still like Watchmen. Fight me.
 
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Nirgon

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"Joss Whedon" lol, keeps picking up a nastier denotation.

Got people like "ugh the Snyder cut wasn't that good... Nonono it's ok actually keep that other guy away"

I loved it but this seems the consensus in the middle of the road camp.
 
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