Loser Araysar
Chief Russia Correspondent / Stock Pals CEO
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Libertarianism - the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly
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Tanoomba
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How are those guys posing a threat to you? What's that? They're threatening to attack US troops in Afghanistan? How about getting those US troops the fuck out of Afghanistan?
Wait a second... did you even see the reason WHY they're making these threats?
"The group threatened in June to escalate attacks on US troops in the Nato-led coalition in Afghanistanin response to intensified drone strikes on its territory."
Are trolling me again? You can't possibly be serious, you can't. My whole point is you don't have to worry about killing ANYBODY overseas because they can't get to you. Just focus on protecting Americans in America and you'll all be perfectly fine. Insist on sending drone strikes that tend to kill many innocent civilians and you ONLY PROVOKE MORE VIOLENCE TOWARDS AMERICANS.
Wow, I can't believe you're supporting my point more than you can support your own.
Tuco
I got Tuco'd!
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I'm board with drone strikes, but I'm also on board with getting the fuck out of Afghanistan asap. The current time schedule is acceptable but I wish we were out and left Afghanistan/Iraq as a failed state years ago.
The core disagreement here is a little unwieldy. Is it possible that terrorist cells in yemen, Pakistan, Afghanistan et all are capable of hurting US and US interests (That Tanoomba would agree should be there, ex a US consulate in Afghanistan)? Yes. Is it provable that killing a certain terrorist cell via drone strikes saved US lives? No.
The core disagreement here is a little unwieldy. Is it possible that terrorist cells in yemen, Pakistan, Afghanistan et all are capable of hurting US and US interests (That Tanoomba would agree should be there, ex a US consulate in Afghanistan)? Yes. Is it provable that killing a certain terrorist cell via drone strikes saved US lives? No.
Loser Araysar
Chief Russia Correspondent / Stock Pals CEO
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Why would we bother when we can kill high ranking members by the dozen and other mid level militants by the hundreds right there with minimal effort by using drone strikes?
Thats the beauty of drone strikes, not only do they constitute zero risk to US, but they are highly effective and demoralizing because there is no defense against them.
We got the equipment, we got the personell and there's zero risk, we can do both. Defend ourselves at home and turn them into giblets over there. Don't even need to keep any major troops there except intelligence personell and liaisons to ISI to find new targets
Thats the beauty of drone strikes, not only do they constitute zero risk to US, but they are highly effective and demoralizing because there is no defense against them.
We got the equipment, we got the personell and there's zero risk, we can do both. Defend ourselves at home and turn them into giblets over there. Don't even need to keep any major troops there except intelligence personell and liaisons to ISI to find new targets
khalid
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fanaskin
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So was invading Iraq saving us from more buildings falling?
They did that by exposing more Americans to harm and more Americans dying than anyone could ever plausibly explain where saved.
They invaded Iraq to send the world a message and they are policing the other regions Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Libya, Syria, and Sudan, nothing more.
while also simultaneously destroying public image of america which is what the real shield vs terrorism is. they are giving terrorists actual good reasons to attacks us.
Lastly one of the reason we attribute to Bin laden for attacking us was to draw us into wars to ruin us, and we are suffering at home including financially because of our bloodlust abroad.
They did that by exposing more Americans to harm and more Americans dying than anyone could ever plausibly explain where saved.
They invaded Iraq to send the world a message and they are policing the other regions Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Libya, Syria, and Sudan, nothing more.
while also simultaneously destroying public image of america which is what the real shield vs terrorism is. they are giving terrorists actual good reasons to attacks us.
Lastly one of the reason we attribute to Bin laden for attacking us was to draw us into wars to ruin us, and we are suffering at home including financially because of our bloodlust abroad.
fanaskin
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Here is the other thing about Drones if we had sent troops into Libya, Yemen, Pakistan, Sudan or Yemen there would be a totally different conversation about what we have the right to do, but when you send drones they press has no discussions about whether it's right we are there, and they show no outrage and neither does the populace in general, there is a fundamental disconnect from sending in a drone to bomb in Yemen instead of sending in planes and troops.
Let's say in Iran a pilot had gotten shot down instead of a Drone, there would have been a lot of conversation about the right of america to fly over Iran airspace but somehow with drones this talk never comes up. there is a fundamental difference in perception with drones .
Let's say in Iran a pilot had gotten shot down instead of a Drone, there would have been a lot of conversation about the right of america to fly over Iran airspace but somehow with drones this talk never comes up. there is a fundamental difference in perception with drones .
Tuco
I got Tuco'd!
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Tanoomba
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Please, elaborate on how they could hurt you. I genuinely want to know.
Zero risk to the US? the only reason the guys you just killed posed a threat at all is because they were pissed about you drone striking them. You created your own problem, you're not protecting yourself from it. Demoralizing? For fuck's sake, they don't even need to recruit terrorists any more, you're doing it for them. Idiot.
Well it's not going to work. People (terrorists, psychos) who decide they want to kill a bunch of civilians and don't care about the consequences (up to and including their own deaths, life in prison, etc) will always be able to find a way to do so. Blowing people up overseas will not stop individuals or small groups from being able to hurt you on your home land. On the other hand, it WILL (as Arayser so helpfully pointed out) encourage more people to see you as the enemy and inspire them to do whatever they can to get their revenge on you.
Again, you're creating your own problem. You think eventually, after you kill enough brown people, that there will be "no more terrorists" and you will be safe? You're creating more potential terrorists with every drone strike you send! Is this not clear to you? I understand that there's a hell of a lot of propaganda telling you how scared you should be and how important it is to kill the "bad guys", but use your fucking brains a bit and stop letting yourselves be exploited by the 1%.
And then you guys have the nerve to tell me you're not on a sinking ship? Jesus fucking Christ.
Tuco
I got Tuco'd!
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Hurt me personally? Or hurt US interests? Because the DoD's role is to protect US interests, not just me personally.
fanaskin
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Im not in support of drones because the way they are currently used, eventually our collective indifference to it will hurt us at home, eventually the lack of care will be applied domestically.
khalid
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You will never be able to stop some lone nut from doing something. However, what you can do and what drones are doing, is use them to disrupt the networks that give them money, training and safe havens. I actually have quite a few concerns about drones, but those concerns are balanced around the fact that yeah, they are actually doing some good.
fanaskin
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Loser Araysar
Chief Russia Correspondent / Stock Pals CEO
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Tanoomba basically wants to turn america into the biggest pussy in the world, with Ron Paul in charge.
I used to be like you and thought the same things, a pure idealist in my early twenties, then I grew up. Perhaps some day you will too.
I used to be like you and thought the same things, a pure idealist in my early twenties, then I grew up. Perhaps some day you will too.
Tanoomba
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Take your pick, I'm all ears.
Can you specifically address the fact that you're actively creating more enemies, please? The people who you're pissing off (and, by the way, who are entirely fucking justified in being pissed off) are being given excellent reasons to do whatever is in their power to hurt you and your country. Are you telling me it's worth creating a never-ending cycle of self-perpetuating violence in order to "disrupt networks"?
Why don't you worry about disrupting the networks that exist in your own country? The networks that allow the 1% to steal your rights and hoard your money?
Tanoomba
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What does this evenmean? Is this school yard machismo your defense for killing innocent people overseas? Because you don't want America to be seen as apussy?
And then you tell meIneed to grow up?
Pathetic.