Lost Ark Online

Gravel said:

Is it possible that with the delay on it being so long, that people way overshoot the ilvl for legion raids (at least the first ones we get) and trivialize it a bit? We already have a lot of people over 1400, and I imagine people may start pushing 1450 if it takes 2 months.

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Just because I like to promote Saint, watch this with sound:


Your thought that gear will gimp things is based on your present experience in Lost Ark, which is totally understandable. This simply isn't the case for what's coming in that sense though.

Chersk said:

I haven’t looked at Valtan at all. If it’s glorified DDR with a bunch of one shot mechanics then yeah I’m out. I don’t see that kind of stuff as “hard” …it’s just dumb.

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I mean how else do you propose to make content challenging? Idk I definitely disagree with you. Having to dodge mechanics while also maintaining dps and being on a time limit is definitely pretty hard. It's without question much more difficult than your typical MMO where you're legit standing in place or barely moving and just spamming abilities on cd without any real thought to it. There really isn't any other way to make challenging content.

There is a line between tough and cheap and this game tends to go the cheap route is all I’m saying.

Voldeth said:

When is Lost Ark going to fail and what exactly is your fail condition?

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Fail is relative. I would use the same time table as Black Desert and Archeage in terms of population drop. People forgive RMT shit for a time if the gameplay is engaging, but the bottom will fall out pretty quick at a certain point. I would say that Smilegate is a bit better at offering catch-up carrots to the playerbase than AA or BDO were, though. The devs of AA and BDO waited a bit too long to add things to try to narrow the gap in gear between hardcore and the rest of the playerbase and didn't do enough to mix up the gameplay loops.

And yes, it has a lot of players atm. But given what I see in all the T2 and lower zones, I wouldnt be shocked if at least 15-20% of those were bots. The amount of bots in the T1 zones is astounding, and I've noticed an uptick in T2 zones while I play as well.

Still having fun. Still playing daily. Had a week or so of not feeling it but I found out it was that I just hated playing Gunlancer as my main alt and relegated it to a Lopang alt. I know once I got to 1400 on my main it took a lot of pressure off and now I only attempt honing once I've amassed a ton of mats.

Cybsled said:

Fail is relative. I would use the same time table as Black Desert and Archeage in terms of population drop. People forgive RMT shit for a time if the gameplay is engaging, but the bottom will fall out pretty quick at a certain point. I would say that Smilegate is a bit better at offering catch-up carrots to the playerbase than AA or BDO were, though. The devs of AA and BDO waited a bit too long to add things to try to narrow the gap in gear between hardcore and the rest of the playerbase and didn't do enough to mix up the gameplay loops.

And yes, it has a lot of players atm. But given what I see in all the T2 and lower zones, I wouldnt be shocked if at least 15-20% of those were bots. The amount of bots in the T1 zones is astounding, and I've noticed an uptick in T2 zones while I play as well.

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Fail was your word. Highlighted below:

Cybsled said:

This game will long term fail for the same reason every Korean p2w MMO long term fails in the West - eventually the shiny newness wears off and people realize it's just a nice looking slot machine that wants you to swipe often and swipe big.

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I've asked you to define what you view failure as. If you qualify BDO as a 'failure MMO' than really, you are insane? I absolutely despise BDO (it's not my cup of tea at all) however to say it's a failure? Still waiting for this to be defined as a result since you've indicated that it's going to fail, you should be able to let us know when we get to acknowledge that you were right?

As for the rest, okay, I'll remove 20% (your high value of bots which is obviously hilarious hyperbole in an attempt to save your argument):

481,861 people online when I posted. 20% of that equals 96,373. Let's remove 96,373 from the count of 481,861= 385,488 active non-bots were online, still making it the most played game on the most played platform almost four months after it was released but yes, the game is going to fail and is dying.

I think people are just crossing wires because the point isnt coming across in a concise manner. But I could be wrong, so Ill put my chief complaint about the game in which I feel is the same place it stems from.

We all played at launch and it took us how long to get into tier 3? Then how long to get into Argos? Then how long to get into Argos P3? Then the game follows up with an "Event" that launches players up to tier 3 in a week or less. Well fuck, why did I spend all that time in chaos dungeons, guardians, raids, etc. only for it to be gutted weeks after I get there?

If we use WoW for example, it would be like you spent the last 12 weeks in Mythic learning every single nuance to every fucking boss, only for someone to randomly show up and be at the same ilvl as you without having to go through any of the wipes/work that you had too. If they came from another guild, that would be one thing - but no, they just showed up ready to plow shit at the same ilvl as you.

Im 1400 and I have a sneaking suspicion that when Valtan is "about" to launch, we're going to get another event that rushes players up to at least 1415. Or, maybe it will launch with valtan. Either way, the way this shit is ran right now does not make me want to put my time into anything that builds my characters item lvl. If player drop off is as bad as everyone says its going to be with Valtan, well I guess I wont have to worry about finding a raid spot at that point.

Voldeth said:

I've asked you to define what you view failure as. If you qualify BDO as a 'failure MMO' than really, you are insane? I absolutely despise BDO (it's not my cup of tea at all) however to say it's a failure? Still waiting for this to be defined as a result since you've indicated that it's going to fail, you should be able to let us know when we get to acknowledge that you were right?

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Ok. To start, I limited my scope to the West. I could give a fuck what numbers in Asia are.

In regards to a AAA MMO, I define failure as 20k or less daily players on average in NA/Western Region and with major content patches only seeing about a 2x bump in that figure.

Kirun said:

Seeing the complaints in this thread just further confirms in my mind what I've been saying for a bit now - Valtan is going to see a MASSIVE exodus of players from the NA version of this game, especially since his release will align with "summer" and people going outside, vacations, etc.

As much as people would like to opine otherwise, Western MMO players don't want actual, difficult content. They want quick, drive up to the drive-thru window and toss another quick McNugget of gameplay into my mouth so I can move on gameplay - why do you think MOBAs and Battle Royales got so popular in the West? Everything in modern gaming in the West needs to be just like the rest of the ADHD, "GIVE IT TO ME NOW!!!!", 30 second clip generation. Otherwise, players bitch/moan until moving on to the next 2-4 week game.

I think 2-3 weeks into Valtan, when people are still struggling to hit 1415, let alone actually defeating the content, NA Lost Ark will be struggling to have even 100k concurrent, real players. Shit, they might even be close now, but it's so difficult to tell with how rampant botting is.

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What? If you are chasing the high end in any game, its not easy or close to throw me a "mcnugget of gameplay" and move on. I don't care if its moba, a BR, or FPS. If there is any type of ranking system and you try to push to the top, its going to be difficult unless you are a good player. It's a matter of making a conscious decision. Are you trying to chase the top or just play at your pace?

Time investment is a completely different thing, but again most games these days will have plenty of things to do, even if you are just log in for 2 hours a day or a few hours on weekends. Sure you are not keeping up either ilvls, gear, ranking or w/e character progression the game uses, but welcome to life.

I will agree that the casual crowd vastly out numbers the hardcore crowd. But that's in any game, be it a moba, a br , a mmo, a fps, a rts etc. Companies try to appease to both, but players are like addicts, they will burn themselves out trying to reach the top way too quick, because their friends/guild, YouTube personality or streamer are all bragging about theirs.

Amycus said:

If you find the game fun, play it. If you don’t, then don’t. Jfc.

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills every time I check this thread.

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This is it really. But its gaming. For some reason gamers cant handle others playing something they dislike. They want to be surrouned by like minded individuals. People also get weirdly defensive when it comes to MMOs. They will fiercely defend anything they are playing and blast anything they don't. It's weird. You can go into any thread here and a good chunk of posters in any of the MMO threads never played or will never play the game, but make sure to go into the thread to post about how bad they think it is.

In the end, if you are having fun play, if you are not quit. IF you think its going to fail, ride it to the ground or nope out now. Gaming is about entertainment. Are you being entertained or not.

I will say off tangent, I dont think BDO failed at all, and its still got quite a decent playerbase. Their seasons thing really helped them. I have no clue how you get their numbers though. No sub, not everyone goes through steam etc. People really spread out in their channels too and the world is huge. I think it helps that its not super popular , so the majority of the playerbase isnt all chasing gear levels to keep up with the crowd, and the ones left that still do, know what they are getting into by now. Helps there is a lot to do that isn't just chasing gear either(unlike AA).

Also who on earth uses current "approx" daily players as a measure of success? Especially for games that have been out a while. That's just dumb.

Kirun said:

There's at least one from the sounds of it. People who are complaining/worried about "glorified DDR" are going to have a real fun time on Kukou-Saydon.

Like I said, it all just seems like a, "lol Argos isn't even hard! The honing rates are the problem! We couldn't access the content!". Yes, because Argos is piss easy. Hell, I'd argue that Alaric might even be a more difficult encounter with the appropriate gear(a lot of 1300+ people come back for the gold, giving a false perception of how difficult that raid really was at proper gear levels). The ONLY part of Argos that is even remotely "tough" is P2, but even that is pretty easy and I've done it with PUGs many times.

I hope I'm wrong, but I really think Valtan is going to be a BIG turning point for this game's Western audience. I wouldn't be shocked if AGS nerfs it to fuck, but even if they do, chances are the exodus will have already occurred by that point. Plus, now you alienate a whole separate customer base by going that route.

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Argos is intended to be a weekly Guardian 8-man. All phases are easy, puggable, and that is precisely the design of it. It's absolutely the fault of SG/AGS for having released it in the manner that they did however as it made it seem that it was an end game raid. It is not. I cannot emphasis this enough. Just like Abyss dungeons are simply harder chaos dungeons with some introductory mechanics. This is not an exaggeration. They are intended to be easy to complete and allow you to outgear them. They're 'feel good' daily / weekly content that everyone can complete.

Legion raids, as you know, are not. They are incredibly challenging and require high degrees of coordination where you'll wipe over and over again (and that's the normal version, much less something like a hell mode). AGS has come out and apologized for how brutal these are from a one shot mechanic perspective. I absolutely do not mind these mechanics and enjoy this from a raiding perspective. Your average NA player however is going to be complaining non stop over how unforgiving they are. The only point where we seem to disagree is that players will continue to view 'whales' as the bad people who are the only ones able to clear this content (I don't agree with this). The mechanics don't give a fuck what your ilvl is and are the literal incarnation of "if you do not perform them correctly, everyone dies." The whales who have thus far simply been raising their ilvl to make things a joke will be the ones that will be laughably unable to complete them the most. I look forward to wiping a bunch and playing through this content, as well as watching some of the streamers that will (for the first time outside of WoW) have actual difficult / accessible content to play in an MMO. It's not for everyone though and I do think that a lot of people will hide behind the "one shots mechanics are not difficult!!!!" mantra and quit though.

Daidraco said:

I think people are just crossing wires because the point isnt coming across in a concise manner. But I could be wrong, so Ill put my chief complaint about the game in which I feel is the same place it stems from.

We all played at launch and it took us how long to get into tier 3? Then how long to get into Argos? Then how long to get into Argos P3? Then the game follows up with an "Event" that launches players up to tier 3 in a week or less. Well fuck, why did I spend all that time in chaos dungeons, guardians, raids, etc. only for it to be gutted weeks after I get there?

If we use WoW for example, it would be like you spent the last 12 weeks in Mythic learning every single nuance to every fucking boss, only for someone to randomly show up and be at the same ilvl as you without having to go through any of the wipes/work that you had too. If they came from another guild, that would be one thing - but no, they just showed up ready to plow shit at the same ilvl as you.

Im 1400 and I have a sneaking suspicion that when Valtan is "about" to launch, we're going to get another event that rushes players up to at least 1415. Or, maybe it will launch with valtan. Either way, the way this shit is ran right now does not make me want to put my time into anything that builds my characters item lvl. If player drop off is as bad as everyone says its going to be with Valtan, well I guess I wont have to worry about finding a raid spot at that point.

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That's a good point. I mentioned in game yesterday how it felt bad that there were glavier's already at my ilvl. Maybe they saved a shit ton of mats, but either way, the class released 4 days prior. That's kind of shit.

I am honestly not sure if I could handle doing a Legion raid. I do not mind dodging or placing myself into an area to avoid insta death. I enjoy DPSing to get the boss's health down. To have a raid designed to both optimize DPS and avoid Insta wipe mechanics at the exact same time feels more like work than fun to me. I guess I am getting to old to enjoy the premium raids. I do not mind an insta-wipe mechanic, but making it the core system of every raid will indeed not go well with the NA crowd. It negates half of the purpose of armor. Part of getting gear is to be able to withstand more damage from an opponent. Its why armor variants like cloth and plate matter. If a raid always relies on a nuke mechanic, then you remove half of the fun of getting the gear.

The system is fine as a hardcore/hell mode. This allows the Elite players that moment of working together to achieve a common goal of prevailing against a grueling mechanic. Making the system common through-out the raids(DPS+Positioning or wipe) is indeed not going to go over very well. People play games to relax, and not get frustrated with other players who were not of their choosing. The elite raid mechanic system(Be here or wipe) should not exist for the random players system. It is to frustrating and will quickly turn players off from the game. The NA version should just use a high damage proportional to gear system for the common folks. This allows everyone to enjoy their moment and give elite players a chance at something that shows off how super focused players do it by defeating the hell version.

How is the US version of this doing? I was really looking forward to it and played it a bunch at launch, but then sooo many other games have come out that have collectively consumed me.

I suspect I'll come back to this maybe in the summer when we enter the next famine-wave of the feast&famine nature of video game entertainment. You might think they would learn from Hollyweird to stagger their releases...

I find the raids quite enjoyable, especially the harder they get and the fact that they do have those instawipe mechanics if ONE player fucks up - it basically means it wants everyone to know wtf is going on and be a good player. It may be too much to ask to some but tbh raiding should always be everyone playing at 100%.