Lost Ark Online

Brahma said:

This pretty much sums up how I already feel, and I'm only GS 1080? Not even close to end game. I can imagine how it will get later.

Raes is spot on with the .5 seconds. The fuckin crazy dodging. The lack of tells etc. It's all lazy design.

I also now see what Raes is saying with the game built around the cash shop. For those that care about power progression, you either cough up dough, or have 3 alts ready to farm. I honestly thought Raes was exaggerating. But he may have underestimated! I have zero desire to level 3 alts.

I'm also in the same mindset, I don't care about playing some silly side game. Figure out some better mechanics for these fights, instead of me running around dodging for half these fights. Get some progressive gauntlet modes in there. ANYTHING but DDR, where if you're not Fred Astaire you lose.

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This has been my issue with "raiding" for a long time, and even simple dungeon in most KR derived mmo's; difficulty is simply mechanics, most of which make no sense being in the fight. I have no solution for getting developers out of the "more mechanics mean better raids" mindset.

Mahes said:

I think players deem skill as " How fast can you type accurately". That is all it is. Are you a good secretary? The faster your reaction speed is, the better you are at responding to situations.

If they made technology that directly connected to a players brain in response, I would be much better at gaming. I just suck at typing on a keyboard.

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This is how I feel when trying to play certain classes in BDO, lol.

Zindan said:

This has been my issue with "raiding" for a long time, and even simple dungeon in most KR derived mmo's; difficulty is simply mechanics, most of which make no sense being in the fight. I have no solution for getting developers out of the "more mechanics mean better raids" mindset.

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The core of the problem with the raid design is (other than plain laziness) the lack of options. The combat in LA, while fun, visceral and pretty, is rather simplistic. You have (usually) your 8 abilities, your ult, your special and your dash. So, combat consists of using your attack abilities on (varying, arbitrary) cooldown, and avoiding damage. So, they want to add "difficulty." Well, what else can your character do? Well, you can move and you can click on things. That's it. Ok, so you add some of that to the fight. Fine. But, when you go overboard, and that stuff becomes the majority of the fight, and any error in execution is an instant fail, well, now you've turned the entire raid into a minigame. Neither your gear nor your skill, that you've spent hundreds of hours acquiring, makes a bit of difference if one person in your group/raid makes one mistake in the minigame.

Why am I doing this again? Oh, right, to upgrade my gear and increase my GS. But, wait, gear doesn't matter... Oh, yeah, I remember now, the only entry requirement for the next tier raid minigame is my GS.

Well, what about the other combat activities? Won't my higher gearscore help with those? Nope, all non-raid content is faceroll easy. And, in fact, some group content is actually easier if you solo it. People new to the game will assume that Chaos dungeons are for groups and will queue up. The only difference with a group is that the mobs have more hp so they take longer to kill (there's a time limit.) Add to that the fact that lots of classes abilities have knockbacks, so mobs will be constantly knocked out of your AOEs, which...makes it take longer to kill. Going in solo is not only easier (with zero chance of failure) it takes less time.

Guardian raids. Starting at, I think, tier 2 the last boss of each tier has some dumb one-shot mechanic. You have a 20 minute time limit and 4 (group shared) max rezzes. It's easier to wait til you have enough dps to kill him solo within the time limit. When you enter alone, the boss has fewer hp, and you can test out if you have enough dps easily, since only the rewards on Guardian raids have a daily limit, not your # of entries. You don't even have to avoid the one-shot mechanic (usually) because you are 1 person with 4 rezzes available.

Phenomenal game design.

Hateyou said:

Why do you play this game?

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Like I've said, I barely play it. I put in minimal effort to earn gold, and level up a new class if I like it. I'm leveling a gunslinger, like 5 levels a week, and I used a free boost on Sorc. And I'm always watching a tv show/movie on my second monitor, because outside of raids, nothing really requires much attention.

I'm playing it because there's nothing else to play atm. As I've mentioned, the devs keep making major changes to the game and the main issues I have could be fixed pretty easily by, like, adding a couple actual endgame dungeons that are challenging without any of the stupid raid mechanics. It's weird though, it's like they have no fucking clue how to make content difficult without turning it into a minigame that doesn't involve combat. Although, the early Guardian raids did that just fine.

And the raid thing wasn't really a huge issue until now. The gear people get from those raids, I've been able to buy off the AH, but the tier beyond what I have now, unlike all the other post-50 gear, can't be put on the AH, for "reasons." The same sort of "reasons" that made them suddenly decide to remove tripod and set bonuses from all tier 1 and 2 gear.

Raes said:

Like I've said, I barely play it....

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Correct me if I am wrong.

You have 4 max lvl chars on one account, and then you created 3 more accounts to lvl more toons to max lvl to help you funnel whatever currency that is time gated over to your main toon.

You then state you have been playing this for 2 years.

Sounds more like you have burnt out of the game after well over 1000+ hrs probably / played and are just bored atm.

Your issues with this particular subject matter aren't unique to LA and can pretty much be summarized as being the same tired arguments that people who don't like MMO raiding use. Some of them are valid (e.g., that the raid design has been, for the most part, rather lazy in terms of coming up with unique challenges) but others just seem off-base for someone who is normally rather conscious of the genre. From my standpoint;

- LA limiting you to 8 abilities and clicking to dodge shit doesn't limit their ability to create challenging content any more than other MMOs. Abrelshud is an incredibly complex raid (which can/should be faulted for so many 'one-shot' mechanics) but it's much like the current WoW mythic raiding or FFXIV Savage raids in that, the developers end up creating a whole bunch of 'my screen is on fire' and a large portion of the 'skill' is in memorizing this stuff and maximizing damage in the available windows. Arguing that this isn't 'challenging' is just a semantical argument on the word. If you don't find that aspect rewarding, MMO raiding has not been fun or rewarding for you across a AAA title for you in decades.

- Gear being easily replaced and only used to gate entry into the next tier is, again, something that the genre has been doing for quite some time. LA's design on this is more Asian (which is shitty) in that they hard gate that shit hard and stupid (something they've been working on reducing at least) but really, getting the best gear possible and maxing it out to brag to all the other nerds until more shit is released is fundamentally a large part of MMOs. Heck, you'll still have people who will post their clear date for certain memorable bosses as a sign that they 'cleared it before everyone else and are thus top nerds'.

- Group content not being challenging or rewarding enough. Where have I seen that gripe before? Oh, right, in every single MMO thread ever. Heck, the only MMO that actually tried to somewhat address this (WoW) did so in ways that would make you hate the content based on your posts. FFXIV group content is like, the most boring and unrewarding shit in the history of shit. I do think that, your point that Guardian Raids not being creative enough and unchallenging is a valid one. This was also recently addressed in KR (they just patched us with a bunch of changes that are targeted at T1/T2 which is clearly intended for NA since no one in KR gives a shit about that content anymore) but much of the addressing was lazyness by upping the HP pool, etc.

There are other stuff that I actually agree with you on (I find it stupid that a higher GS won't make shit 'easier' for me to clear) but this has been the request from Johnny Casual for quite some time --- not wanting to be held back because he has less time to play a game than someone else and it not being 'fair' that your gear lets you progress through content quicker. Thus LA loves to equalize a bunch of stuff. In short, since I believe we agree that LA doesn't do much to innovative the genre and is fundamentally an MMO, this really seems like the shit that you should expect. The design changes from launch to S2 (and the 'praise' they've received from players for it) clearly indicates that they're going to keep pushing this style of stuff out for the foreseeable future (more mini-games, etc) and I'd be fucking shocked to see them try to take on the fundamental issues you have with group content. It just seems like it's run it's course for you and is clearly in the 'not fun' category unless I'm mistaken (it's a sincere question, not trying to be a dick)?

Tide27 said:

Correct me if I am wrong.

You have 4 max lvl chars on one account, and then you created 3 more accounts to lvl more toons to max lvl to help you funnel whatever currency that is time gated over to your main toon.

You then state you have been playing this for 2 years.

Sounds more like you have burnt out of the game after well over 1000+ hrs probably / played and are just bored atm.

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On my main account my Scout is GS 1417, and I have 7 chars that are 1325 to 1340 GS, and my gunslinger that is like level 35. Getting from 1340 to 1415 is hella expensive (another issue, but I digress ) and 1340 is the minimum to enter the most recent continent, South Bern. The current catchup mechanic gets you to like 1302 easily, so other than the leveling to 50, not much work other than leveling to 50, and occasionally running one of em through a post 50 continent. These are characters that have been leveled to 50 sporadically over 2 yrs, with me sometime not logging in for months, then coming back for a major overhaul, or class release.

As I just stated a couple of posts ago, I have 4 alt accounts, and those were not created until the launch of Season 2, which had a lot of positive changes, as well as offering a free boost, even for new accounts. So, I was able to create 1 like 960 GS character on each account with barely any work. When Scout was released, I had some time to kill before I could get a third party to take my cash and put crystals on my account so I could buy more character slots. So I leveled a Scout on one of my alt accuonts. I enjoyed the class enough, that I then decided to level 1 on each of my other alt accounts. Then in September there was another free boost, so I added a third char to each alt account. For maximum efficiency. Doing three 2-3 minute dailies and a tier 1 Guardian kill that takes ~30 seconds, once per character, while watching a tv show, is pretty minimal work for the return. With 3 chars on each account, I only have to log them in for 2 days a week to cap out my Epona badges and collect my gold. And some weeks I don't feel like it, so skip it.

There's nothing to burn out on really. With all the daily/weekly limits, the game makes you play like a casual. Even when I'm doing all this on all 5 accounts I still put in far less time than I do on others MMOs, like Archeage for instance.

I could work on getting the alts on my main account to 1415 GS, but getting from 1370 to 1415 costs like 45-50k gold, per character, plus mats. Even if I used all my work points to fish on all accounts every day, it would take like 2 months, and the fishing is super boring, and annoying thanks to it being the only gathering profession that has a minigame portion. And by minigame I mean the usual Korean crap of hammering your space bar.

Whether or not I'm bored has no relevance to the straight up facts concerning the game design. And I do enjoy learning a new class. Now that the translator has patched in the translations for Sorc skills, I get to work out an AOE build and a Single target build, try them out, and then...well, then it's just boring, because the content is so easy.

I might be a little more forgiving of the raids once I can play an NA version. I won't have to deal with running a vpn and translator before logging in. Won't have 160ish ping, and at least the pugs will all speak English. Because these mechanics require communication.

Voldeth said:

- Group content not being challenging or rewarding enough.

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That's not what I said. I said nothing about the rewards and I specifically said that the non-raid content offers zero challenge. Like, it's actually a chore, because there's no stakes and no chance of failure. One of the main problems with leveling to 50. It's like playing a game with god-mode on. It's fun for about 5 minutes.

Voldeth said:

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There are other stuff that I actually agree with you on (I find it stupid that a higher GS won't make shit 'easier' for me to clear) but this has been the request from Johnny Casual for quite some time --- not wanting to be held back because he has less time to play a game than someone else and it not being 'fair' that your gear lets you progress through content quicker. Thus LA loves to equalize a bunch of stuff. In short, since I believe we agree that LA doesn't do much to innovative the genre and is fundamentally an MMO, this really seems like the shit that you should expect. The design changes from launch to S2 (and the 'praise' they've received from players for it) clearly indicates that they're going to keep pushing this style of stuff out for the foreseeable future (more mini-games, etc) and I'd be fucking shocked to see them try to take on the fundamental issues you have with group content. It just seems like it's run it's course for you and is clearly in the 'not fun' category unless I'm mistaken (it's a sincere question, not trying to be a dick)?

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Trying out new classes is fun, figuring out a build that I like and then taking it for a test run is fun. But, I just want to be able to then go do some content where that actually means something. They used to let you go into Chaos Dungeons that you were below the GS requirement for, you just had to go solo, because it prevented your from queueing for groups. That was fun and challenging...then they recently removed that ability.

The season 2 changes were widespread and done to many different game systems. Not just raiding. And that was when they removed all the ocean minigames. They are obviously going to keep throwing shit at the wall and keeping what sticks. There's no reason to think they won't eventually get it right.

People keep referencing WoW and FF. Yeah, I know all that shit, played WoW off and on since launch, played Shadowlands, was terrible, I agree. Played FF off and on since launch, actually enjoyed some of the raiding, if not the time-gating. But, I pretty much burned myself out trying to level all my alt jobs in PoTD. Got the expansion before this one, but wasn't in the mood.

That being said, there are many, many other MMOs with raiding/group content. Some are better than others, but most of em are different from those 2. There are ways to make the raids difficult that don't involve running around collecting shapes and making holes in the ground, or turning into clowns with clown abilities.

It's not the fact that higher GS doesn't make shit easier, it's that the entire profit model of LA is trying to push players to spend real money to upgrade their gear, while at the same time making that upgraded gear meaningless. It's retarded.

I'm going to be playing in NA when it launches. And hope I can find a guild/static that doesn't suck and see if I can do the raids with real ping and not want to smash my monitor. At this point I'm mostly playing RU out of habit (and nothing better to do), and the simple fact that it's going to be hard to let go, because of all the side shit I've accumulated that's going to take literal years to regain in NA. The songs/emotes/giant hearts/masterpieces/estate levels/skill points/ENGRAVINGS/island hearts/gathering skill levels etc etc.

And, last but not least, as I've also stated many times, in addition to the great combat, the graphics/visual and sound design/music are pretty fucking amazing. I'm really hoping that one of the delays for NA has to do with getting the upcoming DX11 update, but that's probably just wishful thinking.

PS I'm not the only one who has issues with some fundamental designs in the game. Other people in this very thread who have barely started playing are already seeing and agreeing with some of the issues I've raised.

Cinge said:

That sure does remove the chance to play a lot of games. No RTS, no ARPGs, no MOBAs.

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I don’t mind it in rts or moba, just arpgs. It probably has to go with the complexity of ability pools, whereas mobas you maybe have 3-4 abilities if that, not counting items. However, moba/rts also tend to be click target, whereas a lot of arpgs aren’t it feels like. Or not in the same way anyways, they feel more “floaty” if that makes sense

High quality Lost Ark content!

i havent followed this since i played the korean version, any good links to catch me up on everything? with the gaming coming out soon wanna know what to keep an eye out for and shit, i know there was guides for those seed things, but im also talking about like good class write ups and shit

TecKnoe said:

i havent followed this since i played the korean version, any good links to catch me up on everything? with the gaming coming out soon wanna know what to keep an eye out for and shit, i know there was guides for those seed things, but im also talking about like good class write ups and shit

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Your class hardly matters outside of arena PVP. All content outside of that, and the endgame raids (most of which we won't have at launch) the game is faceroll easy. Like, if you have a Naga or similar mouse you can play the game one handed, while watching tv, and balancing your checkbook. Just pick a class you think is cool and go. If you want a cookie cutter build, just looks at the pins in whatever class section of the LA discord.

Raes said:

Your class hardly matters outside of arena PVP. All content outside of that, and the endgame raids (most of which we won't have at launch) the game is faceroll easy. Like, if you have a Naga or similar mouse you can play the game one handed, while watching tv, and balancing your checkbook. Just pick a class you think is cool and go. If you want a cookie cutter build, just looks at the pins in whatever class section of the LA discord.

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Literally on this same page above, you are complaining about how difficult the game is at the end game.

So its either piss easy that can be played with 1 hand, or its so hard and difficult that you dont want to play.

Then its the game is so boring, but you have 3 accounts with multiple lvl capped toons and been playing for 2 years...but you hardly play the game.

If your complaint is that the journey to end game is easy and the raids are difficult, im not sure you can point to any mmo where the ride to end game was difficult and different.

Starting with EQ1, its always been that way. Ive played pretty much every major mmo released since EQ1 and cant really think of any mmo Ive played that was difficult to get to end game.

Time consuming...yes
Difficult...not that I remember

Tide27 said:

Literally on this same page above, you are complaining about how difficult the game is at the end game.

So its either piss easy that can be played with 1 hand, or its so hard and difficult that you dont want to play.

Then its the game is so boring, but you have 3 accounts with multiple lvl capped toons and been playing for 2 years...but you hardly play the game.

If your complaint is that the journey to end game is easy and the raids are difficult, im not sure you can point to any mmo where the ride to end game was difficult and different.

Starting with EQ1, its always been that way. Ive played pretty much every major mmo released since EQ1 and cant really think of any mmo Ive played that was difficult to get to end game.

Time consuming...yes
Difficult...not that I remember

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Hard to tell where to respond and correct you, since you correct yourself. Were you drunk when you wrote this?

I specifically state that ONLY pvp and raids are not faceroll easy. And by faceroll, I mean that literally the only way you can die is if you go afk, or your mouse/kb stops working. I don't know what mmos you've played, but the ones that I have, even when leveling, there is at least a chance of dying. My response to him wasn't a complaint about the game, it was stating objective facts to explain why he doesn't really need a class guide.

You're completing misrepresenting what I've said about the game in my previous posts, and you seem either angry or confused or both. I don't understand why.

1. I don't complain about the "difficulty" of endgame raids, I complain about the minigame aspect.
2. It's both, depending on the content, which is an issue. And it's not really about leveling, you state that, not me. It's about all the other non-raid content that you need to do at endgame. You can't just do raids if you want to upgrade your gear. Raids are to get the mats to craft the gear, and a bit of gold. You still need upgrade mats which requires doing the other endgame content, that is faceroll easy. It's really annoying arguing with people who have barely/never played the game.
3. Mostly hyperbole, not worth trying to unravel.
4. Answered above.

I read recently that the reason the devs have been adding these intricate minigames to raids and making you wipe if anyone fails them is because they don't want people selling carries. So, it seems it's just another case of "you must play the game the way we want."

TecKnoe said:

i havent followed this since i played the korean version, any good links to catch me up on everything? with the gaming coming out soon wanna know what to keep an eye out for and shit, i know there was guides for those seed things, but im also talking about like good class write ups and shit

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Your mileage is going to vary tremendously however as a starting spot, I'd recommend https://docs.google.com/document/d/1oci4R6IkwiQoVhGH8IHwFIS33dVS7hQv2Z-sljRrmcE/edit

With that being said, there is really no wrong choice in so far as classes are concerned and you really should just pick what feels good for you to play. LA's class design is the best in the business and messing around with classes should be something of a fun point. You're not going to run into a situation in which picking X class will result in you not being invited for content.

I just don’t know how you guys can stand the damn chat system. It’s on par with New Worlds. Has to be where AGS derived inspiration.

Daidraco said:

I just don’t know how you guys can stand the damn chat system. It’s on par with New Worlds. Has to be where AGS derived inspiration.

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Not sure how Amazon is going to handle it but for KR all of the chat is basically integrated with Discord (it's built in the game and the system works really well). AGS seems to be going their own route with voice which is a shame.

Voldeth said:

Not sure how Amazon is going to handle it but for KR all of the chat is basically integrated with Discord (it's built in the game and the system works really well). AGS seems to be going their own route with voice which is a shame.

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Oh that would be awesome. Hell, it would be awesome in any game.