I'd love to see more mixed-weight tournaments/grand prix. As said above, 30 lbs spread and offer $xxM+ to the winner to encourage entry.
MMA Thread
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Lanx
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yea, cuz i mean, what happens in a bar?
you got beef with me!!!
yea i do!!!
lets step outside!!!
Hold up,
You're two weight classes above me, lets just chill over some Daiquiris instead.
yamikazo
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Yeah. A 165 (super lightweight) division would be great.
Right now there are a lot of guys who aren't great at 155 but are too afraid to jump in at 170. Kevin Lee, who is not a small dude, walking around near 200, says he wants no part of the 170 division because those dudes are massive. Maybe you get some crossover but it doesn't matter. You get more competitive fights (= more exciting for fans and more money for these companies) and can sell more top 5 match-ups, more top 10 match-ups, and more champions to put at the top of cards.
A 165 division would be just as talented and competitive as any other division in the UFC. It creates more relevancy to fights that are already being scheduled.
Beyond super lightweight, I'm not sure if there's a slam dunk division to add. I'd be interested in a 225 (cruiserweight) division––you get more fighters like Stipe who are big but not gargantuan 260 pounders, I think we might see more grappling and interesting fights, and the guys at this weight have a very hard time competing against behemoths like Francis Ngannou––but I don't know if it's right.
"Assholes like Conor just waiting it out for fun" are the exception. Most of these guys want/need the money. Boxing has tons of guys cross over weight classes, build it into the contracts if you need to (defend or vacate). If a champ doesn't defend against #1 contender for 12 months they lose their title but get a mandatory title match upon their return.
Goatface
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UFC 224 The Lowest Selling PPV In The Last 10 Years?
Amanda Nunes previous fight at ufc 215 sold a speculated 100,000 buys and our sources are saying Ufc 224 is going to fall well below that mark with estimates near the 85k mark.
Amanda Nunes previous fight at ufc 215 sold a speculated 100,000 buys and our sources are saying Ufc 224 is going to fall well below that mark with estimates near the 85k mark.
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The Dauntless One
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You still haven't explained how UFC can fill the 165 division without diluting the other divisions. Fighters like Lee (the only example you gave) are already fighting. Lightweight is in good shape, but creating a 165 will bring some of the smaller welterweights down as well and that division isn't particular strong right now.
Ameraves
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I have said for years they need to add 2 divisions, and just settle in at 10lbs between each division. If HW didn't have such a dearth of talent I could see the argument for a 225, but right now it just doesn't make sense.
135, 145, 155, 165 (new), 175 (new WW), 185, 195 (new), 205, HW.
This really should help the extreme weight cutting and help level out some of the divisions.
135, 145, 155, 165 (new), 175 (new WW), 185, 195 (new), 205, HW.
This really should help the extreme weight cutting and help level out some of the divisions.
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Ameraves
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I suppose this is a risk, but I think it would play itself out fine. Look at Demetrious Johnson, he has excelled at 125, but doesn't want to move up to 135 as he loses his advantage. I think not having such a large swing in sizes could actually help highlight some new guys.
Who knows, I could also be very wrong! I just always found it odd they had 10lb weight splits, then suddenly make a big jump.
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In my mind, more divisions at this point would be about raising the average quality of the matches by giving the athletes the ability to compete closer to their natural weights. I think weight cutting is responsible for a large number of mediocre performances and low gas tanks that we see. (More divisions doesn't reduce the incentive to cut on its own, the addition would have to be coupled with policies like hydration testing that reduce the ability to cut.)
I've cut weight for BJJ competitions, and even done modestly going into a dehydrated state is tough on your body. With professional supervision it's obviously still possible to have high performance afterwards, but I think we'd see better fights all around with division in 10-lbs increments.
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yamikazo
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My point was Lee isn't a big dude for 155 despite walking around near 200. The sport has plenty of dudes bigger than Lee who can neither compete at the highest level at 155 nor 170 so they wash out. You add divisions, you get additional competitive fights.
It doesn't dilute talent, it magnifies it. All of a sudden you have marginal fighters vying for top 10 contention (and top 10 fights are what sell). You create opportunities to sell fights because talent will fill the vacuum.
I agree, HW doesn't have great talent. My argument for 225 would be that guys who would fight in that weight class rarely get a chance at HW (because the size/power disadvantage is real, guys have fear of brain damage, etc.). HW would largely remain as-is without any changes. You'd carve out a division like 205 where there's a diversity of skill sets that are exciting and successful. Guys have enough knockout power to be exciting without losing all endurance like you see in HW where guys get tired during their walk-out. It's a risk but it doesn't dilute talent because largely the guys who would fight at 225 aren't selling fights even if they can stay on the roster.
The Dauntless One
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This is 100% speculation that there will be fighters who become amazing fighters because they can cut 10 less pounds. My point is, a good fighter (Kevin Lee) will be a good fighter regardless. Cutting 10 pounds less won't make or break an amazing fighter.
It dilutes competition considering how most division is pretty shallow outside of top 5. When you add 2 more division, you suddenly you have 20 more "top 10" fighers. Who will UFC fill them in with when they are releasing Yair, Bader, Mousasi, and Rory? Probably third rate fighters. That's not exciting.
The Dauntless One
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I agree with raising average quality of fights. Having more divisions and having policies regarding walk around weight would be the perfect choice. Miss weight? Move up a weight class. Walk around weight on fight night is too high? Move up a weight class. This makes it so people have to fight in their natural weight class and it's safer for fighters. Randomly putting in more divisions without policies to enforce weight would make things worse than it is now.
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yamikazo
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Of course it's 100% speculation. Everything is 100% speculation.
No one cares about third rate fighters. A 165 division would create opportunities for first and second rate fighters to become world class.
Mighty Mouse, maybe the most dominant fighter in UFC history, was a top 10 guy at 135 but he's a world beater at 125.
Guys like Cody No Love, Dillashaw, and Dom Cruz are champions at 135 but wouldn't generate the same excitement at 145.
Creating opportunities for guys to showcase their talent grows the sport and the fanbase. Dom Cruz is a much richer man, he's made the UFC more money, and fans have enjoyed watching him fight because the opportunities were there for him at 135.
Aldo became a legend in the sport but might have been run out of the division at 155.
Before Conor, no one in UFC history held two belts. Cutting 10 pounds less made or broke nearly every champion in UFC history.
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Shano
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Not sure how many people here watch Rogan's podcast (I know I don't watch 90% of them) but I would highly highly recommend watching the one Muurloen posted with John McCarthy. Always knew Big John was the man but holy crap that guy is an absolute fountain of mma knowledge and combat sports all together. He also apparently has the memory of an elephant. They talk about a whole lot of stuff, including the debate going on here about more weight classes.
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Goatface
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i was looking at the UFC's roster on their website and how many were listed at each weight
wikipedia and Bloody Elbow have nearly the same list, but i liked BE's layout better
didn't dive into why UFC's is higher, but they have do have several inactive/retired/cut fighters still listed as current
anyway, thought it was interesting as 8 years ago, they had 220-240
then 5 years ago, after strikeforce, they went up to near 500 and
Dana said they had too many and by the end of the year were under 400.
Current totals
Bloody Elbow 568 (562+22+25 =609)
UFC's website, 689
Class - UFC - (Bloody)
FW = 46 - (31)
BW = 68 - (59)
FW = 71 - (61)
LW = 105 - (78)
WW = 113 - (92)
MW = 72 - (56)
LHW = 58 - (48)
HW = 55 - (43)
WSW = 45 - (41)
WFlyW = 27 - (29)
WBW = 25 - (19)
WFW = 4 - (5)
Inactive - (22) Ronda, GSP, Bisping, Daiz Bros, BJ, etc
signed but not fought - (25)
Bloody Elbow list shows 40ish with a UFC record of 0-1 and 30ish are 0-2
wikipedia and Bloody Elbow have nearly the same list, but i liked BE's layout better
didn't dive into why UFC's is higher, but they have do have several inactive/retired/cut fighters still listed as current
anyway, thought it was interesting as 8 years ago, they had 220-240
then 5 years ago, after strikeforce, they went up to near 500 and
Dana said they had too many and by the end of the year were under 400.
Current totals
Bloody Elbow 568 (562+22+25 =609)
UFC's website, 689
Class - UFC - (Bloody)
FW = 46 - (31)
BW = 68 - (59)
FW = 71 - (61)
LW = 105 - (78)
WW = 113 - (92)
MW = 72 - (56)
LHW = 58 - (48)
HW = 55 - (43)
WSW = 45 - (41)
WFlyW = 27 - (29)
WBW = 25 - (19)
WFW = 4 - (5)
Inactive - (22) Ronda, GSP, Bisping, Daiz Bros, BJ, etc
signed but not fought - (25)
Bloody Elbow list shows 40ish with a UFC record of 0-1 and 30ish are 0-2
Shano
Golden Knight of the Realm
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Np Fight, hope you enjoy it as much as I did.
Yeah man, they have a huge roster which is what a lot of people forget about or may not even know about. That's why it baffles me that people thinking adding more weight classes would dilute the current weight classes. You would literally just be moving people around, and fighters would have more options in which weight to be at. I'm pretty sure Khabib would rather be champ of 165 than 155 for one, which opens up a whole lot of contenders for 155 who more than likely know they can't be Khabib. Opens up the ability to promote more people, champions, and the ability to promote more champ vs champ superfights if the promotion wishes. I have a feeling Conor would love to try to be the "champ champ" again (155 and 165). It opens up a lot more options fighters and adds a new evolution to the game which is a bit needed right now imo. I think you would see a lot closer matchups size wise also when you eliminate 15+ lbs and 20+ lbs difference in weight classes.
It certainly has its pros and cons and wouldn't eliminate extreme weight cutting but I do think it would help and is certainly better than what's in place right now.
Yeah man, they have a huge roster which is what a lot of people forget about or may not even know about. That's why it baffles me that people thinking adding more weight classes would dilute the current weight classes. You would literally just be moving people around, and fighters would have more options in which weight to be at. I'm pretty sure Khabib would rather be champ of 165 than 155 for one, which opens up a whole lot of contenders for 155 who more than likely know they can't be Khabib. Opens up the ability to promote more people, champions, and the ability to promote more champ vs champ superfights if the promotion wishes. I have a feeling Conor would love to try to be the "champ champ" again (155 and 165). It opens up a lot more options fighters and adds a new evolution to the game which is a bit needed right now imo. I think you would see a lot closer matchups size wise also when you eliminate 15+ lbs and 20+ lbs difference in weight classes.
It certainly has its pros and cons and wouldn't eliminate extreme weight cutting but I do think it would help and is certainly better than what's in place right now.
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It's all arbitrary. Would MMA be a better sport if it were open weight with only one champion? Why watch Mighty Mouse at all, since he'd get owned by 90% of the rest of the roster?
Belts are just a mechanism to create drama and investment in the fight, and even that is fading somewhat as this superfight trend grows. As long as there's an adequate overall level of talent, more divisions makes for better overall fights by making them more about skill and preparation than physical attributes.
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