New World

Cybsled

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End of the day, any time you have a system in place that lets a portion of players dictate the game experience for the rest of the server, and that experience has the potential to be adverse, you’re going to have a bad time

Instead losing side gets a “fuck you, pay me” penalty
 
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Malakriss

Golden Baronet of the Realm
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How about not tying a crafting mat to teleport cost. Not scaling teleport cost to insane prices for using your inventory. Not putting an absurdly low 1000 cap on it. Not charging an absurd amount to transfer from one storage to the other instead of teleporting. Not having gear in bags take durability damage when there's 50 sets to cover all the activities. Etc etc etc
 
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Sylas

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nary a soul said "you know what, I love this game and everything about it, its design, gameplay, ui, combat, story, lore, just fucking love this game. But you know what, the azoth being 150 instead of 50 to travel is just a bridge too far, i'm going to quit because of that"

People quit because the core combat loop and all gameplay elements was designed for private server survival game sized encounters, 4-8 people and then they fired the team that designed it and told the new team to make it support up to 50 players in a persistent state, then they got fired and the newnew team was told to make it 50vs50, then they fired that team and told the newnewnew team to make it an MMO.

PVP was a slide show and unplayable. And then because of that slide show people figured out the game was client side authority so you could disable your wifi or simply move your screen around in windowed mode and run around invincible. And then when they tried to fix that by telling the server to stop listening to the client so the client stopped telling the server how many mobs the player was facing so you ended up with musket/bow guys with 200% run speed and hatchet wielders running around with 300% dmg buff all the time because all the skills were designed around that initial client side authority. 100% headshot criticals 100% of the time with client side aimbots, healers running around invincible so they turned off client side hit detection and then melee became unplayable even in PVE due to rubber banding.

Not to mention the trillions of gold and items duped into the world week after week, every single week from a revolving series of dupes and exploits all enabled by client side authority spaghetti code which invalidated any and all benefits of pvp or town ownership or crafting or anything. That shit got so bad they had to disable ALL PLAYER TRANSACTIONS including rent/guild payments multiple times for weeks at a time.

PVPers quit because PVP was unplayable mess of frozen screen and exploits, and besides there were no benefits to PVPing when the duped gold/items far surpassed anything they could achieve by owning towns and collecting taxes. Same for crafters plus for half the time they were playing they couldn't buy or sell anything off the AH. Casuals quit because the combat went from ok to bad to worse every single patch. core players played through the leveling process and then quit when they realized there was no end game because the game only decided to be an MMO 6 months before it launched and there was no content just cockblocks.

This game that launched was a failure that would have failed even if there was never an option to flag for PVP. PVP has nothing to do with it being a shitshow.
 

Cybsled

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You’re mentioning things that didn’t impact the casual player. War PvP, duped high end shit. Yes, it sucks, but your average player is more likely to stop playing if the game keeps sending them to far off spots and they have to walk 30 minutes to get there, or keeps charging them gold that they don’t have
 

Sylas

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Everything I mentioned affected the casual player. Azoth costs being slightly different depending on faction control had zero impact on casuals.

The vast majority of casual players joined green because it was cool, and to a lesser extent purple, probably 65/35 split. zero casuals joined orange. They never felt the "sting" of slightly increased azoth costs.

I played orange on a green controlled server (which became stuck green when the companies who owned the territories left the server), the azoth cost never mattered, never even knew I was paying more than a green, because azoth was plentiful and the cap was too low. You sat capped at 1k azoth the entire time you were leveling up doing the quest chain.

Speaking of which, another reason why your point is invalid, the game didn't "keep sending you to far off spots". It sent you to a city (first time you had to walk there), had you vacuum up some quests there and complete them, repeat a few times, and then it sent you along to the next city to repeat. The vast majority of travel was from quest area back to the city that gave you the quest, repeat, over and over and over. You could only port home once per hour, and if you wanted to port otherwise you had to go find a shrine which weren't always close to the quest areas. Only time you had to walk far was when you finished an area and had to travel to the next one on foot, and azoth wouldn't matter you couldn't teleport to a city you'd never been to.

The only complaint casuals (and everyone else) had about travel is "where the fuck is my horse? this shits gay."

The game started its decline the moment the devs tried to fix something and broke way more shit and we learned the engine was held together with duct tape and the devs were clueless. that decline continued but more than any other reason was the player base lost confidence in the game itself. They lost half their population the moment they had to turn off the auction house and player trades. The other half left a week later when they had to do it again.
 
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Cybsled

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You're not speaking from a common perspective. The game massively punished you for trying to teleport anywhere with any manner of weight on you. Your faction not own First Light or Monarch's fort? Enjoy spending 200+ azoth a teleport. The rate of gain was low sub-50, and even after 50, it's pretty low unless you can get into OPRs or Invasions easily. Or you're playing 5 hours a night.

The game also tosses lots of weapon and armor quests at you that have you traveling all over to get things. Or the MSQ.

I'm not saying it is the sole reason, but lack of mounts and limited teleport options meant most people had to walk a very long distance and it wasn't something you could just AFK. While I know a lot of people on this forum have massive hardons for lack of fast travel options because they are still trapped in 1999 EQ1 mentality, the game basically wastes your time to get anything done. The time investment feels out of whack with the rate of progression, and people start to drop out of the game. Once the new players start to dry up, then all that is left is the poopsockers and hardcore, who eventually are lost to attrition as they get bored with limited end game loop options (which again were gated by costs, like the dumb orb system or being able to successfully get into a 50 man war roster).
 

Sylas

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dude for the first month when this game actually had players, none of the invasion portals beyond the newbie ones worked, and OPR wasn't even in. You got all of your azoth from running quests, and that's exactly what the casual experience was, running quests.

Yes general travel was hugely PITA, storage was stupid, encumberance, etc and contributed to why players quit, but that was because no mounts, it had nothing to do with the PVP faction control impact on azoth costs. All that shit was part and parcel of the trade/life skill system remnants from it being a survival game where you would build a town, relics of the earlier design before it became an MMO.

Trying to teleport with a full inventory cost most of your azoth whether your company owned a city or not.
 

Tearofsoul

Ancient MMO noob
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I said these months ago when the game first came out. Lots of the little annoying things adding up together makes me logoff and never bother to come back:

Fast travel stone + no mount: who the fuck think these systems are good for an MMO? It discourages meeting up and being social. Even EQ has teleport spells ffs.
No central market: Again, who the fuck think this is a good eco system for an MMO?
Bank/storage + weight system: Dude, even Skyrim offers a less pain in the ass experience. I login to a game to have fun, not going to the gym to lift weight.
Dungeon stone: Again, a very anti-MMO design, It makes player interact LESS with each others as a result.

It really feels like these design choices are coming from people who don't know what MMO is.
 
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mkopec

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Yeah I gotta say the no mount thing was dumb as hell too. Running simulator was fucking spot on and prob attributed to more people quitting than anything else in the first week(s).
 
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Cybsled

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Pretty much. And a lot of those choices feel like legacy designs from when it was originally going to be a forced PVP game. Once you removed that, then they became barriers to enjoying the game.

Looking at Tearofsoul's list and changes they have made or will be making, speaks strongly to the fact those have all been massive reasons behind players leaving (especially early on)

Fast travel stone + no mount: Latest PTR patch has them adjusting fast travel base cost to 20 and removes distances+weight penalties, but doing it this late in the game's initial release was a huge mistep

No central market: They made the markets shared across all settlements a couple months ago. However, because of the non-central market + storage issues + transport issues, they made players pick Everfall and Windsward as the "main" hubs due to their centralized locations on the map. This in turn made people buy houses there. As a consequence, even though they have linked markets and soon will reduce transport costs, player behavior has them going to EF+WW still, which leaves the other settlements more impoverished. It will take a lot of effort to "break" that habit

Bank/storage + weight system: They haven't addressed this yet, outside of removing the weight penalty for fast travel in an upcoming patch. They are massively slashing housing taxes, though. Max tax is 1% in an upcoming patch, so the absolute highest tax for a t4 house (which holds 4 storage chests) will be 200, which can be further reduced by faction or territory standings. While that doesn't fix the issue, it does at least make expanding your storage somewhat cheaper than it was.

Dungeon stone: This again strikes as a legacy feature from the old forced PVP game model as a means of limiting people from doing shit in instanced areas. They have really chosen the orb hill to die on, though. They've reduced costs on orb crafting multiple times, but they still require materials that are expensive. And they recently added the ability to buy orbs off the faction vendors, but that is still limited to 1 per week. As a result, players charge people for spots in a group. While I appreciate being business savvy, the idea of paying to run a dungeon is extremely offputting to most people. Plus the new Mutator system has a lot of issues with it: Your ability to do mutators is restricted by your average gearscore, and they fall into the Mythic+ trap of WoW where running higher mutations becomes extremely niche because no one wants to risk their mythic 6+ key.
 
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Tearofsoul

Ancient MMO noob
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I personally see no reason to have cost attach to fast travel. I can tolerate a short cooldown. I mean It is not like you can fast travel anywhere in the game. There are still plenty of running you need to do. Same thing with dungeon, I'll be fine with dungeon lockout, or a one-time dungeon key quest. But crafting dungeon key is required EVERY SINGLE time? That's NOT even the case in real life. You don't see me getting new key every time coming home.
 
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Xerge

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Id settle on the escape from tarkov key mechanic where keys only have so many uses and they break.
 

Mahes

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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I would settle for just not having keys.

The idea of playing a video game is to enjoy playing it. The difficulty of doing something should revolve around the thing and not access to the thing. The dungeon should be difficult and scary. Adding a barrier that prevents players from accessing the game, quickly makes players not bother playing the game. Now if you want to create a one time key, then that is at least manageable.

Creating a permanent barrier that a person has to jump hoops through just to play a portion of the game only works if the rewards are character altering. There has to be one hell of a carrot to justify a repeat key system. That carrot in no way exists in its current form.
 

mkopec

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This is the result of all those wonderful decisions made by the devs.
Capture011.PNG
 
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BoozeCube

Von Clippowicz
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MMOs are social games, anything that splits up players and prevents them from grouping up is aids.
 
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mkopec

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One of the dumbest things this game had is servers with 2K peeps max with 3 factions. You can see how this shit works out in the long run. Just not enough people and not enough turn over in a territory control game.
 
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Xerge

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One of the dumbest things this game had is servers with 2K peeps max with 3 factions. You can see how this shit works out in the long run. Just not enough people and not enough turn over in a territory control game.
This. By design the game wasn't an MMORPG. it was an MORPG.