NHL 2021-22 Season - Now A Turner Classic

Ishad said:

Selke and to a lesser extent Norris are reputation awards. Hard to compete with Lidstrom’s reputation

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Yeah, plus the whole offensive defenseman winning hadn't gained full steam yet. I like to think Green cleared the way for other guys later on. 31 goals by a D man still just nuts. When you factor in his games played, we haven't seen anything like it in ~30 years.

Regime said:

Leafs just shit on us

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Denamian said:

Wings shut out the Canes?

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Ned was great especially the first 2 periods. Canes continue to have these games (usually at home) where they dominate for a majority of the game but don't score then a soft one gets by from the other team and the next thing you know they lose. You can say great goaltending but you got to find a way to score when your dominating in every stat. You especially need to find a way to score when you are fighting for the division against a team that's out of the playoffs. It's frustrating.

The James Norris Memorial Trophy, or simply the Norris Trophy, is awarded annually to the National Hockey League's top "defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position".

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As an Avs fan I have Makar bias for sure, but the numbers don't lie. A +/- gap this wide gives the defensive nod securely to Makar. Also, no slight to Josi at all, but this is why Makar will win the Norris.



Just compare all stats, and the current 5 point gap in scoring will not make up for the gap in defensive numbers. Also, being that there are still games to play. I see the scoring gap being closed as being more attainable than Josi catching up defensively. How is there any vote for Josi if they are even or possibly Makar with more points overall and better defensive figures?

elcaro1101 said:

As an Avs fan I have Makar bias for sure, but the numbers don't lie. A +/- gap this wide gives the defensive nod securely to Makar. Also, no slight to Josi at all, but this is why Makar will win the Norris.

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Just compare all stats, and the current 5 point gap in scoring will not make up for the gap in defensive numbers. Also, being that there are still games to play. I see the scoring gap being closed as being more attainable than Josi catching up defensively. How is there any vote for Josi if they are even or possibly Makar with more points overall and better defensive figures?

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+/- is a terrible stat and doesn't really indicate anything. For example, using 5on5 numbers since only one of these guys kills penalties, Josi has actually been on the ice for less goals against (49) than Makar (50). The gap is built entirely on the greater offense of the Avs team rather than any sort of better defensive play.

+/- might be a bad stat to judge a defenseman, but I feel there's some warrant to judging the potential of a forward as a 200ft skater.

Fully disagree about the weight of +/-, as the player is participating in every point gained or lost. The team's potency is a factor for sure, but they are still involved in each point movement.

It’s helpful at times but shouldn’t be a big factor. You could then argue that Josi is on a far inferior team and his +/- is good for being on said team.

elcaro1101 said:

Fully disagree about the weight of +/-, as the player is participating in every point gained or lost. The team's potency is a factor for sure, but they are still involved in each point movement.

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The argument that a player is participating in every point gained or lost is a flawed one. As an example, let's say a winger is fighting for a puck in a corner. He cycles it around the zone to an open defenseman who baubles the puck leading to an odd man rush the other way and a goal. Is the winger influencing anything that mattered on the play? Not really but he still gets the - for it. You can do the same for a + perspective. An opposing team goes for a change while the defensemen are holding the puck deep in their zone. No one pressuring them. Your partner then feeds the puck up the ice for a rush chance, did you participate in that play sitting 30 feet away from the puck the entire time?

The bigger issue is that in any goal against, its rare that a skater other than the goalie has the biggest impact on the play. A goalie makes a big save, you don't get a -. Goalie lets in a shot from a bad spot? You get a -.

+/- is a pretty useless stat but it can have a use in noticing trends that need to be further looked at like the example I used for Makar and Josi earlier. Makar is actually on the ice for more goals against despite the +/- gap, how would we then conclude he is the better defensive player? Josi plays more minutes, so thats not a thing. They have similar deployment, both starting in the offensive zone a little more than 60% of the time. All of the simple stats would suggest Josi is the better defensive player of the pair.

Here's someone who probably put it much better than I did:

I can understand all the points made, the lack of control over a stat tied to your name causing it to be a bit arbitrary. I guess as a person that played D from 5-20 years old, I hold it in special regard. There is an effect of having a elite player in any position that allows other team mates to extend themselves knowing who else is out there with them. It also goes the other way, where players on the other team see a more formidable or less so opponent and it effects their mindset as well. This I guess is my only argument to the play influence example made.

My vote still stays with Makar, and I think that will be proven correct after the season is said and done. Game after game I find myself cheering on multiple plays made by him that you only see from the elite of the league, on both offense and defense. Granted I don't watch Preds games and Josi may be supplying some of the same, my vote stays.

Wild being a Caps fan last 3 games. 9-2 win over Philly, 7-3 loss to Toronto, 8-4 win over Montreal tonight. D is way too loose.

Not a huge Canes fan lately, but gotta feel for them if Andersen is out long term. We'll see with Staal as well, the Av's are a different animal.

Jarry out week to week too. Sucks for the kid, but fuck that team. Would love to see them drop to the 1st WC and the Rangers take the division. Probably a best case scenario for the Rangers.

At this point, I wan't Igor in bubble wrap. Gonna be a long week. Not looking forward to playing the Isles who would love to take a run at some of our guys. Caps/Rangers to close the season, but hopefully it's a skeleton crew for both teams. If it's gonna be them in the the first round, could get nasty though.

StoiCynic said:

Not a huge Canes fan lately, but gotta feel for them if Andersen is out long term. We'll see with Staal as well, the Av's are a different animal.

Jarry out week to week too. Sucks for the kid, but fuck that team. Would love to see them drop to the 1st WC and the Rangers take the division. Probably a best case scenario for the Rangers.

At this point, I wan't Igor in bubble wrap. Gonna be a long week. Not looking forward to playing the Isles who would love to take a run at some of our guys. Caps/Rangers to close the season, but hopefully it's a skeleton crew for both teams. If it's gonna be them in the the first round, could get nasty though.

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Yeah I'm assuming we'll both be giving a good bit of guys rest. We might still be chasing Pitt at that point, though.

First time I've seen Vasy sat two in a row since God knows when. I guess first one doesn't count but still. Cooper has been making good decisions toward the end of the season.

Saw this yesterday, RIP to one of the best goal scorers ever.

Florida's goal scoring ability is just insane. Huberdaue is having an insane season. The guys got as many assists as Barkov has points basically. Fucking beast. Florida taking the cup unless somebody out grinds them. And them going up against the Avs would be a great story.

Still rooting for the home team. One way or another Florida Man gonna take the cup!

Penance said:

Florida's goal scoring ability is just insane. Huberdaue is having an insane season. The guys got as many assists as Barkov has points basically. Fucking beast. Florida taking the cup unless somebody out grinds them. And them going up against the Avs would be a great story.

Still rooting for the home team. One way or another Florida Man gonna take the cup!

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If they come up against someone with solid defense and goaltending they are screwed. They're not hot at the other end of the ice.

I think 'screwed' is a bit of an overstatement. They've gone on this latest run without their best defenseman and they're getting him back in time for the playoffs.

Bob has been good at times and sketchy at others. They are 10th in the league in GA so not the best but not the worst.

lurkingdirk said:

If they come up against someone with solid defense and goaltending they are screwed. They're not hot at the other end of the ice.

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Since January they're tied with Carolina for GA and almost a +100 differential on the season. Think they'll be just fine.